For many of you who play NSL or even just in a regular pub match we often struggle with the command chair glitch that allows a skulk to bite the command chair from under an open wall of the command chair, without a possibility of the marine hitting this lifeform. Unless of course you can jump back in the command chair before it finishes it off in its invincible state. I am asking all of your opinions on whether this is an exploit or a glitch. And whether it should be allowed in NSL because as of right now it is allowed for a skulk to bite a command chair without receiving damage. Thanks as always!

-Leprachaun, Diamond Gamers Captain
Diamondgamers.net

Hey guys,

For reference this is the event that took place:

http://www.twitch.tv/isegaming/c/3989310?t=80m14s

Leprachaun, Forgive me, but I believe you are missing the point. Weather it is a glitch or an exploit isn't really the issue. It is an UN-intended function of the game. Meaning the creators of this game did not purposely set forth for skulks to become trapped under the command chair, and allow said skulk to attack the chair without taking damage. So, any unintended functions should not be allowed in a competitive match.

As to the game you are referring to, the ref made a bad call. It's as simple as that. If you are decision maker and you are reading this post, please take careful thought in refereeing a game. There are many passionate players on NS2, and every call you make, every decision you weight in on is looked at with scrutiny, and there is nothing more discouraging than bad judgement.

I have played in competitive matches before, and with my previous experiences that player would have immediately been disqualified (intentional or not) and game restarted. Simply put that is how it is done in a number of other games. As unpopular as it may seem, I now understand why those types of rules are in place. It protects the community, keeps players honest, and forces teams to play with better sportsmanship.

I find myself enjoying all aspects of NS2, in a lot of ways it is reminiscent of the early days of Counter Strike and Starcraft. I stopped playing competitively mainly because of poor sportsmanship, and bad leadership. I hope this warning does not fall of deaf ears, there is nothing more detrimental to a gaming community than bad judgement and poor sportsmanship.

-Impulsive

ItsSuperEffective says

Hey guys,

For reference this is the event that took place:

http://www.twitch.tv/isegaming/c/3989310?t=80m14s

Approximate Time of Incident: 01:24:00

I agree bad call by the referee, I believe the exploits mentioned in the rules are still examples and not specifications.

It really seems like the skulk was half-way out of the chair and was actually killable, but two of your guys didn't spot him and walked around the chair, third guy gets him while he is still "just" half-way in the chair, but then again no first person spectate is available so it's hard to tell for sure. But in this sense I can somewhat understand the referees judgement call with you also dropping cross and still being in the game.

You could have easily have stayed in the game(and maybe won the round) by saving cross and redropping sub, you were still in that game, the game ended because you stopped playing and started arguing. Complain to the referee or another admin once the round is over if you don't like a decision, not during the round. Only the referee can stop the round and the round goes on unless the referee says otherwise. I think it's poor sportsmanship to stop playing like that. All you should have done in that moment was to write "ref replay?" and respect the decision even if it is a bad call. You can argue once the round is over.

I've never ever 'seen' that happen before, so let's just not overgeneralize what people know and what they don't.

You can see the outrage from the stream and it's apparent game wasn't over you just stopped playing. Let alone how the topview doesn't indicate if the skulk was really under the chair, when littlewolf clearly answered no to the question and i don't see any first person evidence from leprachaun(only marine in line of sight to the skulk) to suggest otherwise.

Skulk is not invincible.

It takes damage before CC dies, and after.

Still annoying.

If commander jumped out earlier and trapped one skulk, he could kill both and then you'd have the same issue, just have the teams who are complaining reversed.

Agreed with others, ask ref and play "to the whistle"

Also it was a relocate or at least a safety net in dropping the 2nd CC from where you should have continued playing.

What was this reaction from Diamond Gamers?!

Firstly, we can see on the replay, you could kill LittleEvilWolf through the chair, he took 20 or 30 damages when one of the Marine from Computer Lab is back. Even if he was invincible, it was clearly a bug & wasn't intentional. You placed another Command Center in Crossroads, the game wasn't over, one of the Marines could put another CC in Sub-Access, only 5 seconds needed.

Rules never mentioned it was an exploit or a glitch. Maybe it's impossible to kill the skulk under the CC, maybe not, that's a good question & need some details about this bug but the other question is why you stopped playing after that? The game wasn't over, 2 clicks & game started again. You can't complain like that during a round because it's maybe unfair to destroy CC like this. As swalk said: "I think it's poor sportsmanship to stop playing like that." But rules mention that for informations: "The referee on hand during matches or an admin may be called upon to interpret the rules as they see fit." You have to respect decision from any referee during the match, even if you disagree, whatever your opinion.

You can contest his decision after the match not during a round. It was a pathetic reaction from you & this match was clearly who knows the rules better than the other. Was exaclty the same for both teams. This is a game, & a sport too, you have to know this notion, indeed you can win because of forfeit, 4/0 because the opponents can't align their players, or because one of them was stuck & kill the CC. If we use this rule, we can win without playing, if we use this one, it will be easier for us to win this round, blablabla. This is a competition indeed, & for your teams the first one on NS2, your first official match to be more specific. Are you happy? First match between two new teams in Season 4, & first match with so bad atmosphere, criticize the decision of the referee, ragequit during the middle of the round, throw spikes during the game (by the way you can't call the referee like that on your mumble, that is not fair because if you have arguments, perhaps the other team wants to give its own arguments too?). You're here to train & increase your level on NS2, you're here to be better not to complain because that is bad, we have to restart the round because we lost 15 tres (even if we still can win this one). So yes, this is certainly a bug, a famous bug for some people but is it really a good reason to complain, want restart or ragequit (look previous round)?

Something I didn't understand by the way, you asked Tico before the match about this bug in particular? So you know it could happen before the game?

In my opinion, I agree with Tico, you clearly didn't need a restart, & he did job I gave him as referee.

Surely a complaint about an invincible skulk is enough to get a pause, at least?

Maybe have it mentioned in the rules that any bugs/exploits like this can allow the ref to pause the game, and then the ref will have a bit more time to decide. This will also give both sides a small chance to explain the problem further.

This could have allowed the trapped skulk to use /unstuck, for instance, then resume the game.

i did not know of this glitch i was merely biting the chair. when the door came down i couldn't move at all. my point of view was the wall of the chair closed in on the screen and took it up[i could not tell if i was under, on, or in i just was looking at a grey comm chair side]. i didn't mean to get stuck.



i can try to "reenact" the bug and get screen caps but its will be a while and i am not at home atm, and post screen caps of my view.

So by reading this, we can come to this conclusion?:

I like big butts and I can not lie. You other brothers can't deny

Imagine this. Your team is out of position and aliens rush base. You are the only one spawning in and happen to kill all but one skulk when you have the super annoying weapon jam bug. You subsequently die and your chair goes down. Is that reason enough to reset? No. Had you not had the jam, could you have survived? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I was watching this stream as well. While it was unfortunate she got stuck and destroyed the CC. Was it intentional? I highly doubt it. Not to mention the dropped chair in Crossroads. Many teams have been forced to relocate early game and still win. In fact, sometimes an early relocate is a viable strategy, in fact. I find no fault in the ref's decision. You were rushed. You relocated. You should have continued as normal. DMD didn't seem to have a clue she got stuck until she said something in all chat. Any sort of argument or concern you had was essentially tarnished by the BM and raging of a player that occurred prior to this incident.

TLDR: You were rushed. You relocated. You should have continued as normal.

Sorry for the double post but I went ahead and capped some screenshots for this debate.


Here you can see that the marine was, in fact, able to hit the skulk stuck underneath the flap. The skulk was NOT invincible.


This marine is typing instead of continuing with the game and trying to save the CC. The game isn't over until the ending banner shows, as stated in the rules.

The chair was dropped in Crossroads with almost 70 TRES left available. Had they dropped an IP, maybe 2, they would've been fine, especially since a Crossroads base puts marines in a very strong position.

Most of you must have failed to read the original topic as this was not a post in relation to any match in particular. The fact that you are willing to bash a specific team on the forums is disconcerting, littlewolf thank you fo your input into the forum at no point was I disappointed in anything that you had done. While the subject of that match is on the table. There was no rage quit on the table, while one of our members quit the game before from it the last round was not the case. Our entire team was at the understanding that if that occured in game it would be a reset, we thought this from the fact that the ref told us through mumble about 5 min before the match officially started. Another thing that has been overlooked from this whole problem is how refs are picked. I trust tico as a fair ref as I have seen him in game many times and is a viable member of the community, but one look at his screenshots makes it apparent that he plays with Shewolves quite often and therefor has a bias towards them. Also shewolves have been embraced by the community with open arms due to their team being captained and primarily comprised of females. This is a good sign for a developing community like our own. But it should not bias the refs in any way. I do respect shewolves greatly as DMD has scrimmaged them 5+ times in the past month alone. Another topic that was mentioned was a rage quit, as of right now H3adak3 is no longer a member of Diamond Gamers as of last night. We do not condone his actions on our team or on any of our servers. Yet another point I would like to bring up to dissuade those of you that would like to slander the name of Diamond Gamers, many of you don't realize that we broke the rules a week before by rescheduling the match less than 24 hours before the match at the request of Schwa. We accepted their request being the respectable gamers we are. We are not asking for much just a fair match that allows both teams to grow and better themselves.

-Leprachaun, Diamond Gamers Captain
Diamondgamers.net

I think the fact people have helped SheWolves is great. I personally don't care if it's an all-girl team. Most of the people on Mister, including me, help them practice because they ask. If you would like to scrim or practice, all you have to do is ask. Most people are more than willing to help give tips, show drills, and strats to new or learning teams. They, just like DMD, are a Div 4 team and want to compete at the highest level they can. By asking players in higher divs to practice or scrim, they will better.

I really don't believe the argument of a ref being bias because he practices with a given team. I practice with them and other teams as well. It doesn't mean that I will bend the rules in order to help them win, and I feel every ref or caster here feels the same way. We want to see fair and entertaining matches, period.

Can you edit that and add some paragraphs so people can actually read it? Thanks.

NeXuS says

Sorry for the double post but I went ahead and capped some screenshots for this debate.


Here you can see that the marine was, in fact, able to hit the skulk stuck underneath the flap. The skulk was NOT invincible.


This marine is typing instead of continuing with the game and trying to save the CC. The game isn't over until the ending banner shows, as stated in the rules.

The chair was dropped in Crossroads with almost 70 TRES left available. Had they dropped an IP, maybe 2, they would've been fine, especially since a Crossroads base puts marines in a very strong position.

Nexus image shows evidence the skulk was being damaged before the chair was destroyed. There is no invincible skulk argument here, it is a bad angle most likely.

Also, Zefram got involved in the decision during the match I believe as he told the stream the rounded officially ended, it is a 3-1 final score.

Seeing as Zefram holds final say on the rules, we should respect his and Tico's decision since they interpret the rules.

Seriously, I can't understand your team & your point of view.

Your first message: "01 April 14 05:29" CEST for me.
The end of your match: "01 April 14 04.30" CEST.

"Most of you must have failed to read the original topic as this was not a post in relation to any match in particular." Are you joking? I hope you don't think people which ones read this topic are stupid?

"many of you don't realize that we broke the rules a week before by rescheduling the match less than 24 hours before the match at the request of Schwa."

First time scheduled: "Confirmed for 7:30PM EST."
Re-schedule time confirmed: "Leprachaun ( Diamond Gamers ) on 25/Mar/14 01:32 (= 7.32pm)" = 23.58 hours before.


"but one look at his screenshots makes it apparent that he plays with Shewolves quite often and therefor has a bias towards them" Something strange to have someone who played with some other NA teams indeed.
I'm French, do you mean I can't ref any french teams because I know these teams?

" Also shewolves have been embraced by the community with open arms due to their team being captained and primarily comprised of females" What is the connection? You insinuate that the decision was taken because of that?

"(iv) Teams reserve the right to deny a referee or caster if the team believes the official may be bias. If a team wishes to do so, they must contact an NSL admin to make a final determination." You can quote that before the match, but it's a little too late now no? & you must prove it.

I have nothing against your team to be honest, but when I read your messages, I can't stay silent. You only give arguments that go against the spirit of the NSL and contradict what you do not stop to argue. "We accepted their request being the respectable gamers we are. We are not asking for much just a fair match that allows both teams to grow and better themselves." After that, I can't believe the last sentence. Think about your reactions & your messages & be honest please. You only lost a simple round.

I was playing as a marine with Diamond Gamers during that match. I’m not here to argue about the decision. It’s final and I accept that. I do have some concerns, questions, and opinions though.

1) What is this relocation argument? How does that affect whether a glitch should merit a game restart or not? I would think that if a glitch occurs, and at least one team contests it, a restart should be considered. The decision for a restart should not be based on whether a team can recover from said glitch, or not. It should be based on whether the glitch did occur and whether it did in fact have an impact on the game, regardless of it being a positive or negative impact.

As an alternate example using this logic, let me offer a reproducible glitch: let’s say we were playing veil and hid an arc behind the West Junction/Nano-Grid wall. Yes, exploits where you place structures out of bounds are directly prohibited, but bear with me. We then proceeded to kill a harvester in Nano-Grid with this invulnerable arc. At this time the opposing team drops a harvester across the map. Maybe it’s to counter their dying Nano harvester, or maybe it’s part of a different strategy. The purpose and act seems irrelevant to me. Is it fair to say that the glitch isn’t game changing because the other team can just rebuild that harvester in a different location? Is it fair to say that the team should be able to recover from that, whether they actually can or not? Is it fair to say that it isn’t game changing because the arcing team promises not to do it again, whether intentionally or not? The glitch still has a very real impact on the game, whether it directly causes end-game or not.

I believe that getting trapped under the command chair is 100% accidental, and I’d expect that skulk to continue biting rather than taking it upon herself/himself to console kill. The skulk would likely have no idea whether they are (mostly) invulnerable or not. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s valid gameplay.

2) Some people have told us we should have paused the game to make our argument. My opinion, for future occurrences, is that if a team contests an action for whatever reason, the referee be the one to pause the game, not the players. I know that teams can request game pauses, up to two per match, but my impression was that it is only valid for when players disconnect from a game.

From the Rules:

“8. Match Procedures
(i) Pause Function
(iii) Pauses are only to be used to enable a player who has an unexpected connection issue to reconnect to the server.”

I assume many people think a pause would be unnecessary; that the ref can make his decision and play should resume uninterrupted; that it should be discussed after the game. In hindsight, I would probably agree. Maybe this is how it is supposed to be executed, but I can’t seem to find the procedure for disputes during games. The fact that a game is live until the winning/losing banner displays probably covers it. This was Diamond Gamers very first official match, and obviously we all have much to learn.

3) The referee made a call, which is fine. That’s his job; however, he in fact gave us poor information before the match started. When the referee came to check if we were ready, he mentioned some basics like no exploiting. He mentioned a scenario such as shifting in whips on infestation that has crept through walls. At that time I asked him directly about this exact command chair glitch. He told us that if it happened, as it happened to us before during a friendly scrimmage, it would be grounds for a reset. As I see it, it happened and he did not reset as he indicated he would. That’s his decision, but myself, and I assume the rest of my team, did not receive any type of explanation for this. Maybe he did not understand our original question, but that was not indicated to me.

From what I have read, many of you have not experienced this command chair glitch. The ref had told us he never saw the glitch occur before either. I have experienced this glitch before in a scrimmage match against LF. After a quick dispute, we ultimately reset with input from a 3rd party spectator. In this instance, I was the marine running around the chair looking for the skulk who was hidden under the flap. I realized he was under the flap and began searching for the skulk’s hit box to lay on some damage. I kept shooting directly at little pieces of his character model that would pop-out as his animation cycled through bites. The hit box was ridiculously small. Does it exist? Yes, you can damage the skulk. Consistently? Maybe not. Maybe it flashes above and below the command chair. I can’t say for sure how the glitch works, but as I shot the damage indicators would popup inconsistently. (Friendly fire was turned off during this scrimmage, so I did not need to worry about damaging my own chair.) The very nature of the glitch is an unsteady game phenomena. The skulk’s relative hit box size and location is disputable. In the Shewolves vs. Diamond Gamers match, there was a point when a marine damaged the skulk in question, but it may not be definitive proof that the hit box was able to be obtained by the marines at all times. A game reset should be considered if at any time the skulk can cause damage while marines cannot, regardless of their angle.

In the screen shots posted on this thread, we can see that a marine was able to cause damage from a wide outside angle (coming from Computer Labs to Sub Sector). However, if we rule that this glitch is allowable, you should consider all maps and scenarios. When I experienced the glitch against LF, it was not on the Summit map. It was veil. There is no wide angle to be had if this occurs in Control on the Veil map. The marines are left simply with the option of spraying their command chair hoping to kill the skulk before they kill their own chair. This scenario is not by design.

4) Conduct. I don’t think we handled the situation in the best possible fashion. As I said before, this was our very first official match. Many of us love NS2. We’re obsessed and passionate. It can be confusing and overwhelming for us. We’re a new competitive team, but we’ve all been playing Natural Selection for many years. It’s a bit of a different world regarding casual and competitive play. In time we will learn, lesson by lesson. We may be Div. 4, but we have all the heart and ambitions of a Premiere Div. team. And who doesn’t like a bit of drama from a spectators point of view? Haha :D

But seriously, I expect our team to improve in both skills and semantics.

Thanks for reading and thanks for watching.

I did not institute the reset as I said would happen, in this situation, based off of everything I was observing in the match. When this occurrence had happened I saw that LittleEvilWolf had taken damage, while the command chair was on top of her. But at the same time regardless of her being stuck in the chair, the chair was so low it didn't matter the 2 skulks in your base would have killed the chair. I will also admit when asked about bug I was unsure of what you guys mean't by being stuck under the chair. To be honest I thought you guys were saying the skulk would literally get stuck under the chair (Under the base of chair/below the techpoint not the flaps of the chair). Which was not what occurred. So there were some misunderstandings between us.

And at the same time of all this happening there were 2 marines in crossroads building an armory and a chair showing that the marines were possibly (don't know for sure) relocating to cross. IF that were the case, why would you even bother saving sub access. It doesn't make sense to me.

If you guys had not dropped a chair for a backup I WOULD have given you guys the benefit of the doubt and given the reset, based off of what I said prior to the match beginning. But since you had dropped the chair and finished building it, BEFORE the aliens could actually secure the win of the round; I did not implement the reset. I'm sorry to have let you guys down on what I said but that was my judgement and it will remain the same.

And Knox I will completely agree with the thought of me pausing, but I couldn't because we weren't playing on a server where I had all my normal powers as ref. Normally we wouldn't play on the server we did but it was our only option unless you guys wanted to wait for the servers to be fixed or played on a European server, which I doubted. So I do apologize on that.

Diamond I am sorry about your loss on the match, but as the ref that was my judgement. I hope this clears some stuff up.

I can understand the perspective from DMD. You are experiencing an unintended bug that you JUST had a conversation with your referee about, in which he stated would constitute a game reset, therefore you expect the game to be reset and stop playing.

At this point, quoting the rules as justification for the result Tico came to is not good enough. The rules state the rules are up to the interpretation of the referee, and they also state "play until the banner". Which rule takes precedence over which, and at what point can we logically say that it is not the fault of the team for improper interpretation, but something the league has to absorb as its own mistake and provide?

Especially when it seems as though the ref provided contradictory and misleading interpretation before and during the game.

Obviously this issue isn't any one person or team's fault. It is not the fault of the referee, and not the fault of the NSL admins. It's a very thin grey area in which the rules were not (and frankly should not be expected to be) able to handle.

Given this, DMD, for what it's word, I apologize at the result of the match. It is frustrating. Perhaps Tico made a mistake, or perhaps interpretation of the "bug" in question was misinterpreted which led to a series of events that ended in a game loss for your team.

Regardless, I do not think it is correct that we would offer a rematch or nullify a round's results. We cannot penalize the team that did nothing wrong in their play to achieve a victory. Luckily, this is only an event that affects one round, and not a final, and I do hope that its results do not affect you in the late season.

All that can be done at this point is to say you may request a different referee for your future matches if you do not agree with the scheduled one. Keep in mind that if a replacement referee cannot be found for you, you will perhaps be playing without one, and if any conflict arises, it will be handled subject to the rules.

Tico has played with us, like most members of Mister have, as have members of Titus, Table For Six, Cheesecake, Lucky Fuckers, and most of all Diamond Gamers themselves. The player known as H3adak3 is someone I frequently play with, and Knox was practicing WITH She-Wolves for three days before the match. If I remember correctly, he has also played as a merc when we haven’t had everyone on. Does that mean that all of them are biased in our favor?

The fact that the gender card was pulled is almost laughable, and equally it’s insulting. We’ve gotten no more special treatment than any other team. The fact of the matter is that we’ve asked for the help and made friends with members from these teams by doing so. We took the games seriously, though we did still have fun with it. Yes, She-Wolves is primarily a group of female gamers, but by pointing that out and using that as a ‘bias’ argument, you are reducing the credibility of your team, your argument, and adding to the stereotypes surrounding female players. We haven't ever expected a free ride, and actually worked to get where we are now, facing even more of the BM conduct because of our gender. Several of our members have been practicing nearly non-stop to get better at what they think they're lacking. Others have practiced quietly by themselves. You just made all of their hard work seem completely asinine by reducing it down to gender-based pity play to help 'the poor little girlies get better so they're not stomped by the big bad boys of gaming.' It's a ludicrous assumption that our gender would weigh so heavily on a ref's mind when determining if it was a fair play or not.

Knox mentioned the conduct of the players, which I couldn’t agree more on. Bad manners were something we (Schwa and I) frequently repeated to our members to keep the game going and not get in a fuss. Regardless of what was said to us, we kept as civil as possible. I was appalled, and numerous times told my members to just leave the server until a decision was made when the issue came up. Numerous times Arsh was tossing the possible forfeit in our faces, and several times the ref said to stop. We have faced severely bad manners from this team before and let it roll off of our shoulders because…it’s a game. It’s supposed to be fun. Right now, I have no problems with several members of the team, but I’m rather disappointed by the team, and its conduct, overall. I’m sure my girls can find other teams to play against if Diamond has such a problem with playing against She-Wolves. All the teams mentioned above seem more than willing to scrim, stomp, and practice.

I've seen this glitch happen several times before and have never seen the skulk unable to be shot. I think we can all agree that it was not a malicious attempt by LittleEvilWolf to hide in the chair and be 'invincible' and thus is not grounds for a reset.

In the future, if you are having trouble shooting a skulk on the chair, go hit the login key, and jump off the chair before it closes on you. This puts the sides up and allows you to run around and shoot the skulk.

Overall, you guys (Diamond Gamers) were still very much in the game and in arguably a better situation if you had relocated to Crossroads. This should not, and I believe did not, impact the decision on whether or not to reset. The main thing to remember is to keep playing until the win/loss banner shows and save the arguments for after the match is completed.

I just have one question. What was the point of the armory?

Golden says

In the future, if you are having trouble shooting a skulk on the chair, go hit the login key, and jump off the chair before it closes on you. This puts the sides up and allows you to run around and shoot the skulk.

Thanks for the advice. We do appreciate it.

lol Virsoul

Hi guys. Sorry about this thread, the match, etc. I was really looking forward to a good match, and wasn't prepared for any of this.

This is only Div 4, and most people joke about it, but a few people are confused as to why we made a fuss about that game.
This has caused people slander, trolling, and hard feelings.

Some people acted brashly on our team and I will deal with that as best I can. I cannot predict player behaviour in advance, and I personally apologize for any DMD members abrasive text that game. It was a lot of stress being our first game, and well - here goes nothing


--------

We've played She-Wolves a few times. There has been some trash talk back and forth, I'm not certain what the intensity/joking/relationship was between people, but after last nights match, I am certain that everyone is on the same page. We are going to be a positive influence moving forward and I am sure Schwa would agree with me that we need to move on. I respect She-Wolves and their tenacity. I would be pretty pissed off about how a professional community such as DiamondGamers handled the situation and even if one team does wrong, doesn't allow for another to respond. Those holding a grudge are off the team.

The "incident"
--------------
There was heat between a few players of both teams previously which carried into that match.

Having the ref fall back on his statement to us pre-game)see Knox's post) I believe escalated matters. I have spoken to Zefram, and have told him that I respect what he does and his decision. We also hope that the ref team will have a meeting to discuss the original topic of this thread. It was unfortunate that Tico had no admin access to pause the server when needed.

Nexus- "DMD didn't seem to have a clue she got stuck until she said something in all chat.
@Nexus - We knew she was stuck, tried to kill, and we knew it was going to go down as such the second chair drop.

Nexus - "Any sort of argument or concern you had was essentially tarnished by the BM and raging of a player that occurred prior to this incident."
@Nexus - It was unfortunate and we hope it doesn't happen again.

Little Evil wolf was honest about being stuck, and I appreciate it. But if I was in her shoes, I would have kept biting too. This glitch is a royal pain in the ass.

Pelagir - "Seriously, I can't understand your team & your point of view. "

@Pelagir - this is what started the debate - An expectation was set by the ref, and it fell through. Zefram told me in chat
"your team just managed a xroads relocate on summit? AND you had tons of res? putting you in a position to basically fuck them?.. but because of how you handled the situation. you threw the round"

If we had known that a reset was not going to happen, if that expectation was not set, this would not have ensued and play would have continued. As Zefram states - we were in a very good position.

Pelagir - "Most of you must have failed to read the original topic as this was not a post in relation to any match in particular." Are you joking? I hope you don't think people which ones read this topic are stupid?
@Pelagir - The point he was making is - how do NSL/Teams handle this if it happens in the future, regardless of if it happened 59 minutes ago. I think it's good to discuss this so refs can take the input and review the suggestions for the future. Leprechaun's wording may not be perfect, but I'm sure that at least a few of us know what he meant. I hope that clears it up.

Pelagir - "Re-schedule time confirmed: "Leprachaun ( Diamond Gamers ) on 25/Mar/14 01:32 (= 7.32pm)" = 23.58 hours before. "
@Pelagir - Nice of you to dig into this.
Leprechaun was not correct in stating we broke the rules to schedule a rematch. But we did schedule a rematch in respect to Schwa's team and we did not take the forfeit win. We wanted to play with She-wolves. They have been playing with other DMD members in and out of scrims, and we really wanted to play each other. I'm sad that it went the way they did, but we can't change the past and need to move on.

@Leprechaun - People MAY be biased; regardless we all agree that refs should be fair in judging in any sport. They did what they felt was correct and Tico also spoke to Zefram about it - possibly looking for approval to reset ( unsure ) but it was Zefram who ordered the forfeit. Not Tico. I could be wrong on this, but that's what I got from my chat with Zefram about the incident.

In closing, This is a single Div 4 match. Again - apologies on specific members of our group, and we hope you see an improvement next game. I appreciated the feedback from everyone and She-Wolves - Keep on trucking! Rematch? lol j/k :p

Virsoul - :) Just for you..
http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Armory