New NSL Concept:

By talking to many NS2 Commanders, Fieldplayers and Casuals we found way too many ppl that dislike the management of NSL and ofc things like bad rules or bad balancing toward lower divisions.

We want to have more fairness and democratic constitution into NSL so our idea is to get 1 main admin for each Division, like this we can get sure that all intrests of Premier and Div 1 to Div 4 are for sure.
All Admins will Vote together for changes in the Compmod, for League and Tournament Rules and for Game Formats.
Also they can decide what new Map to add and to do Playtests or Public votes to add them.

The current Admin System with League-,Gather-, etc- Admins is really good and should stay in place but for decisions about to change the game-meta we need to have a democratically progress.

Conclusion Offering:
#1. How to find Admins for that.
*Clan-leader can nominate themselves or be nominated by other people, the nominees
need to confirm. If there is more than 1 possible admin for 1 division there will be a
Vote by the division leaders about it.

#2. How to make Public or Admin Votes.
*On ENSL.org we have a function to make Public Votes and the intern Admin forum also
also has the option to insert Votes if that isnt given we create a extern platform for Votes
or we do it oldschool via forum signups.(alternative Homepage for Votes only is ready)

#3. Division Admins
*Every Clan-leader from one Division vote one of it own Leader to be division Admin.
The only exception is if there is a equal size of admins like for example 2, 4 or 6 then the lowest division will not get a admin for its division.
To have 3 or 5 admins means to always have a decision like 3x yes 2x no, so the Vote progress will not be slowed by re-votes and intern disagree.

Each intern Admin Vote has 1 week “Admin-Vote-Time” the only possible vote options are Yes and No there won’t be a vote possibility for “i dont care or Maybe”.
- In case every Division-Admin voted before this 1 week is over the Result is confirmed.
- In case its an equal result (because one admin is not available) the final vote will be redone when the other admin is around or it will be done through a forum vote from the community (Active vote for possibly 7 days).
- Admins are in charge for the NSL 30 days before a season starts till 30 days before the next season start.
-In case there is one Admin doing critical wrong decisions(Trolling, Inactivity, Cheats) a Vote of no confidence can be done by the other Admins to remove this Admin you need 80-90% vote results for it in the intern admin votes.

So, if you wanna avoid One Admin or a Little Group of Friends to have too much power and messy votes with all the team leaders, you can just implement a 2 levels pyramid:

Level 2: Teams chose a leader (pretty sure they already have one XD) and these team leaders vote for a division admin and they talk to him about problems and suggestions, etc.
Level 1: Five division admins gather together and discuss as representatives the problems inside their division, and they vote the final stuff.

This way you have all the teams and division represented, but only 5 people voting the final decisions. :3

*EDIT* we gonna see who is jelling most against this changes, they are these to lose the most.
*EDIT* This format is very good for Small communitys, the size doesnt matter for it!

First release. 23/9/14


Examples:

the core from it is that a majority of people want to nominate someone they realy like to see as a leader..whats bad with that..

admin work gets shared, its less work after all and One admin isnt responsible for everything.

if something happens to the main admin (illness accident reallife) the League isnt Busted because of one Headadmin.

in case the one admin and his group want to make hillarious changes, they cannot without community confirm.

NationCup Example: Nobody ever wanted 1 map only and the NSL alone decided it against the NationTeams because they are to Busy already for well organising and community wishes.
(Team Captains disagreed with that Rule, but it was ignored with the words: who the f#ck cares)

Example about Kodiak, even other NSL admins Blamed Kodiak to be unbalanced and not ready to be played in NSL but one Head admin decided to add it without askin the community, he did it because one of his bros admited it.

Zefram & Co did some good work for NS2 but its just time for a Change.

We want to have more fairness and democratic constitution into NSL so our idea is to get 1 main admin for each Division, like this we can get sure that all intrests of Premier and Div 1 to Div 4 are for sure.

This is what we're delaying the season for?

lol

Next community petition please.

I like the idea and am all for division representatives.

Golden says

This is what we're delaying the season for?

lol

Well, it'll reduce the amount of clusterfuckery in the lower divisions and make them more composed. At least a step in the right direction.

In case there is one Admin doing critical wrong decisions(Trolling, Inactivity, Cheats) a Vote of no confidence...

aslong as all divisions play with the same mods, meaning the same compmod version, and same maps (saying aslong as all divisions play exactly the same game) I am fine with that

Dear friends,

I found the new NSL Org Chart guis!!!11



But really, there is absolutely no reason to have divisional admins. All its going to do is make simplistic things more complicated. What you really want are not 'admins' per say, you just want ideas in comp mod to go through a voting process. At least that's what I gathered from that novel.

Sincerely,
joshhhy
(not signed)

or maybe they want their admin system untouched by Titus. Titus has its fingers in too many pies imo.

joshhhy says

But really, there is absolutely no reason to have divisional admins. All its going to do is make simplistic things more complicated. What you really want are not 'admins' per say, you just want ideas in comp mod to go through a voting process. At least that's what I gathered from that novel.

Exactly. I was and still am against admins per division. Especially on a such game with a small community and around 150 players only.

The Titus hate is real.

joshhhy says

The Titus hate is real.

totally undeserved <3 you guys are always so receptive and a joy to deal with on the forums =D

The passive aggressive Rising is real.

joshhhy says

The passive aggressive Rising is real.

i prefer sugar-coated hostility.

is this a fucking joke?

...

RisingSun says

or maybe they want their admin system untouched by Titus. Titus has its fingers in too many pies imo.

If the competitive scene was much much larger, so having everyone voice their opinion individually on a public forum would be unmanageable, there might be a point. But looking at the size of the current compscene, I don't see any use for this idea.

Players within a division will undoubtedly disagree on things anyway. So then you'll have people complain their "chosen" representative is not on thesame page as they are. It'll just overcomplicate things and slow down progress.

Keep it simple, if you disagree with a certain compmod change or tournament rule, discuss it on the forums, and then you're voice has been heard.

From my experience with the ns2 community over the years, people who are willing to put in the work, listen to other people and generally strive to be productive and helpful community members have all "risen to the top" if you will. You can see this with the entirety of the CDT roster, the ENSL staff and those who consistently contribute to Cmod.

It's not that the lower divisions are being denied representation, it's that there has been no one who is willing to put in the work and dedication to do it (and do it well).

So my 2 concerns with this kind of mass democratic voting system is:

#1. The elected admins will not be dedicated enough nor be able to invest the time and thought into their duties. You will not be able to just pull reliable, reasonable individuals that people can trust to vote for their interests out of thin air. If such people existed, why are they not on the Cmod team or NSL staff already? It's been stated the door is open to both of these teams a millions times. It's because no one wants to bother with these responsibilities.

and #2. is that simply you'd never get anything done. No way are you going to get 5-6 people to agree on anything when the system is so big an spans so many divisions. This is assuming you can get mythical perfect admins who are unbiased, not trolling, and dedicated. (which I doubt would be possible given how vulnerable the voting system per-division would be open to being)



The existing entities are already very open to public sway. Imo the best way to get representation and subsequent changes, if you feel they are needed, is to find people who share your views and are willing to dedicate a small amount of time on a consistent basis to represent you. Have them contact Zefram to join the NSL staff or myself/dragon/golden/anyone else involved with cmod to join the Cmod team. Because 90% of the time, all we see are complaint threads on the forums, when the reality is that anyone is open to contacting any of the 'powers that be' and if you deliver a well reasoned and detailed argument, it's likely that you will be listened to. But again, it's finding the people willing to do this that is truly the hard part. A lot of people would rather grab their torches and pitchforks on the forums and argue endlessly about how 'the man' is holding them down than try to put forth rational arguments for the actual issues.

As kind of an afterthought, it's also extremely difficult to gauge interest or support for a given issue in this community. A lot of times it appears to be just a small number of individuals who are claiming something is a problem, but how do you know if the majority of the community agrees with it? They certainly don't post on the forums. Especially when there is usually an equally small number of individuals vocalizing opposite views. Usually all there is to go on is hearsay and the minor amount of people who are being vocal about it. But there is no real way to know. This is something that will always be a huge problem, regardless of what kind of admin system you use.


this is just my 2c to what I found to be a reasonably posted topic, so thanks izO for not turning it into a flame fest or anything by calling out names or something in the OP. +1

Trolling aside. This thread did deserve a well laid out response, and rantology has delivered. I completely agree with her.

http://www.pixule.com/243891702750_ban-pelargir.html

Duivel says

http://www.pixule.com/243891702750_ban-pelargir.html

I voted yes. Moadib is an excellent Gather Admin, he should stay in the staff.

This system is too complicated, but clearly the current system has failed. Don't blame Titus or Zefram for that, because most of you "ignored" people are to blame. There are plenty of ways you can voice your opinion and be heard. You just have to take the 20 seconds to reach out to them and make a clear and REASONABLE argument. Bitching about a change with no evidence or piss poor reasoning will get you nothing.

Also, if you post about a change you don't like, but most of the community disagrees or beats out your argument, get over it. You lost. Perfect example is the recent challenge to commander PRES. The argument was made, many more people disagree with it, the change is probably going to stay. Adapt and get over it.

You want democracy? Let's simplify your suggestion, OP, because yours wont work. People and teams jump divisions way too much for it to work, and your system calls for way too much time and attention to calling votes and revotes. People will have no interest in the tedium that it creates, and more often than not, those voted won't be doing their duties.

Make 3 seats. Community votes people into these seats. Comp mod and NSL activities and run through these 3 representatives. Don't like an existing rep? Find someone willing to take his place and run a vote. Keep the current dude or fill with new dude.

The 3 dudes can kick Zefram off his "seat of power" if they dare, but must be prepared to replace him with someone equally masochistic and capable of suffering.

I am sick of reading these shit essays. If your thread does not end after 144 characters. Please delete.

SammyG says

I am sick of reading these shit essays. If your thread does not end after 144 characters. Please delete.

My essays are actually well thought out and generally grammatically correct. So fuck you!

SammyG says

I am sick of reading these shit essays. If your thread does not end after 144 characters. Please delete.

If your patience ends at 144 characters, please stop participating in forums. It's like going into a church and asking people not to pray.

The strange thing is what i see from these posts in this thread that actually rantology made a hell of a good reply, with good things in them, and a good answer for Izo's thoughts

While 2 other members from the CDT team writes their reply like they were hit by an rock on the head and dropped as a child from 5th floor, way to pick the staff!

Oh and btw, where are the requests for more members to the CDT team? Cant seem to find them anywhere, it would be so nice to actually see an article post where you girl/boys explain what the "job" concerns about, what's expected of one and another person, and how much involvment you expect from them!

Ryssk says

The strange thing is what i see from these posts in this thread that actually rantology made a hell of a good reply, with good things in them, and a good answer for Izo's thoughts

While 2 other members from the CDT team writes their reply like they were hit by an rock on the head and dropped as a child from 5th floor, way to pick the staff!

Oh and btw, where are the requests for more members to the CDT team? Cant seem to find them anywhere, it would be so nice to actually see an article post where you girl/boys explain what the "job" concerns about, what's expected of one and another person, and how much involvment you expect from them!

2 people? what? I only see 1? And you can hardly blame people for being frustrated with all the undeserved shit slinging that is going on.

I believe that was the point Rant was making, that it isn't 'job description first, apply second' its if you are already contributing something great to the game or the community, you will get noticed quickly and you let things go from there. Its not a job, its a bunch of people trying to improve a dying game in their spare time to put it bluntly, therefore no expectations or anything like that. It is whatever you can contribute.

I really don't understand the notion that the CDT or comp balance team or anything is some kind of elite club, because its not very hard to get in y'know? Prove that you have something to say, that is intelligent, well structured and thought out CONSISTENTLY and I'm sure that you would be welcomed with open arms.

Ryssk says

The strange thing is what i see from these posts in this thread that actually rantology made a hell of a good reply, with good things in them, and a good answer for Izo's thoughts

While 2 other members from the CDT team writes their reply like they were hit by an rock on the head and dropped as a child from 5th floor, way to pick the staff!

You mean the one other member of CDT? And if by "hit by a rock on the head and dropped as a child from the 5th floor" you mean "utterly fed up with having to deal with bullshit, unreasoned arguments from petty people who can't understand how the real world works", then yes I would agree to my post being that.

On the other hand, I left rantology to reply to this topic with a reasoned post, and she did a very good job. The entire premise of the argument laid out by iZo is unfeasible and unlikely to occur. Pretty much everyone who has shown an iota of sense and reasonability combined with drive to try to sustain this game has been grabbed up by CDT or Compmod. Good luck trying to find people with the capability to do what you are asking that isn't already involved in some manner.

The main problem I see with this community is its attitude, and this thread is yet another example of it. In response to a perceived problem and a possible solution, there was a lot of hostility, trolling, and dismissal. The people behaving this way are the same ones who do it in other threads where feedback is requested or solutions are proposed, and it really discourages people from speaking up. There's a fundamental culture problem here where opinions are disregarded because of who they belong to and where any disagreement leads to escalation, and I've only seen it getting worse with time. Thankfully, not everyone behaves like this (this thread is much better than most), but there are too few of those people to make things work as they should. I don't see these issues so much in the areas of the UWE forums where competitive players don't post as much, and that makes interacting with the CDT and others there so much more pleasant and welcoming.

In response to rantology, I don't think people were aware that we could actually join the Comp Mod team, or that there were open NSL positions from which one could actually make a difference. If it was said, I suspect I missed it. However, I'm also not sure why holding those positions should be that relevant. Doing that doesn't change the person and it doesn't make them better at constructing useful contributions. The value of someone's input is unrelated to how that person is labeled, and that's especially important in a community this small where there are so few voices that each one represents a large percentage of the whole. I'm glad that some of those running Comp Mod are open to feedback and want to hear what people think, but we have a problem where people's voices are silenced and made unwelcome by a vocal minority, which runs counter to your goals. I can honestly say I would have jumped at the opportunity to work with the Comp Mod team and help improve the game, but putting up with months of bad behavior has really killed that drive and left me frustrated. I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I cautiously support the OP's idea because I think it's a way to allow less-skilled players to actually get a say in this toxic environment. I probably wouldn't have an opinion on it if we did a better job of moderating people's comments here to keep the attitude in check, calling people out when they're actually misbehaving, and nudging people toward higher-quality discussions without so many logical fallacies. That's the real solution we should be striving for, but a culture shift is much harder than a rule change. That said, I believe that culture shift needs to happen if this community is going to endure.