31 October 2016 - 14:41 EDT
It just sucks.
Remove Descent from the NSL map rotation.
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31 October 2016 - 14:48 EDT
Great shitpost! Now any particular reason why it's bad? Or just another typical "stop spamming gay" post?
Kash
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31 October 2016 - 14:51 EDT
I've argued time and again about descent, but people insist on keeping it. I don't see this post being any different unfortunately.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
31 October 2016 - 14:55 EDT
It's not fun. Aliens have a too easy time on it because as marines you can have inaccessible vents from far away rooms directly leading into your base. It is also too big and has too many routes. Some rooms design are just really bad, Plaza, Observation, Gravity, Water Treatment, Silo.
31 October 2016 - 15:37 EDT
I'd just fix spawns to either Drone Bay / Fabrication random spawn or marine Fabrication / alien drone bay spawn.
Monorail and Launch Control spawns are consierably harder to lane block for marines, because of the vents leading directly into the marine base.
Imo, marine Fabrication / alien Drone Bay would be ideal, as in: the most interesting. Aliens get more vents to get out of base, while the marines have it easier to lane block their base. Also the aliens have an easier time getting a second / third hive in hydro, which means the matches should be less stale in mid - end game.
Monorail and Launch Control spawns are consierably harder to lane block for marines, because of the vents leading directly into the marine base.
Imo, marine Fabrication / alien Drone Bay would be ideal, as in: the most interesting. Aliens get more vents to get out of base, while the marines have it easier to lane block their base. Also the aliens have an easier time getting a second / third hive in hydro, which means the matches should be less stale in mid - end game.
Kash
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31 October 2016 - 16:10 EDT
tbh, i'd rather see it be drone bay spawn for marines... but fab is fine too.
Locking the spawns as vertical should be a must imo, horizontal spawns are just plain bad in so many ways.
Locking the spawns as vertical should be a must imo, horizontal spawns are just plain bad in so many ways.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
31 October 2016 - 16:42 EDT
Or learn to play the map..?
Descent isn't a map you can play a typical marine strat, you often have to change it up.
Relocate hydro, rush Jps, rush mines, rush phase gates, go for a quick arc.
Descent is like summit, except significantly more alien friendly simply by being larger.
Play with 2 marines energy, 2 hydro 1 base if you start in launch.
Every vent bar one of the hydro vents you can boost into with another marine i believe.
Descent isn't a map you can play a typical marine strat, you often have to change it up.
Relocate hydro, rush Jps, rush mines, rush phase gates, go for a quick arc.
Descent is like summit, except significantly more alien friendly simply by being larger.
Play with 2 marines energy, 2 hydro 1 base if you start in launch.
Every vent bar one of the hydro vents you can boost into with another marine i believe.
Kash
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31 October 2016 - 17:28 EDT
Didn't take long for the "L2P" comments to show up.
For me its not about not understanding the map... I understand it fine... But I also understand the tactics of Mineshaft, Kodiak and Refinery... that doesn't make those 3 maps suitable for competitive in their current iterations.
Descent is a bad map with horizontal spawns.
For me its not about not understanding the map... I understand it fine... But I also understand the tactics of Mineshaft, Kodiak and Refinery... that doesn't make those 3 maps suitable for competitive in their current iterations.
Descent is a bad map with horizontal spawns.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
31 October 2016 - 17:45 EDT
Keep descent.
Get rid of docking2.
ez.
Get rid of docking2.
ez.
31 October 2016 - 17:55 EDT
Yes, you can research fast mines or have a marine stay in base, but that still puts that marine team at a disadvantage compared to the marine team spawning in Fab/Drone. One team may have to invest into mines, while the other one doesn't. One team has to split 2/2, while the other team may split 2/3.
Biodome has fixed spawns for the same reason.
31 October 2016 - 18:23 EDT
Descent is a great map. Ill happily make stream on how to play it, if people are unable or incapable of doing any research or theorycrafting themselves.
There are worse maps in the rotation.
There are worse maps in the rotation.
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
31 October 2016 - 21:12 EDT
ALSO dont take what happened in the edgy s&d game as any reason to blame the map
we knew what we were doing and a certain person failed to defend base that's all you can say about it
People wouldnt even have started this discussion if we'd won the base defense, this is just dumb
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
31 October 2016 - 22:18 EDT
If you had MACs this wouldn't have happened.
1 November 2016 - 04:01 EDT
I'd be in favor of at least doing same spawns in the match, or same alignment in a match. Meaning when team A starts West-spawn in their marine round, team B needs to play marine from West as well (or East).
1 November 2016 - 05:55 EDT
Old threads discussing the same topic, if anyone is interested:
http://www.ensl.org/topics/1190
http://www.ensl.org/topics/1230
Essentially fixed spawns (and/or keens proposal) were considered boring.
http://www.ensl.org/topics/1190
http://www.ensl.org/topics/1230
Essentially fixed spawns (and/or keens proposal) were considered boring.
maxamus
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1 November 2016 - 06:01 EDT
I like Descent :)
1 November 2016 - 08:15 EDT
TIL I am boring. FeelsBadMan
Kash
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1 November 2016 - 08:50 EDT
Wow, keep an eye on that head size bauer, you'll not be able to fit through door frames soon.
Does this thought process also include the previous times people have complained about descent too? were they because you lost to a base rush? or could it be that people are playing descent again because they have to play it in an official match, and its reminded them of how shitty the map can be?
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Some people like Descent, some people don't. I think vertical spawns are fine and provide a fun map... horizontal spawns on the other hand are absolute aids, simply because they are not fun to play in the slightest.
I'd rather see descent with fixed spawns than see it removed from the rotation. but I also know from previous discussions that it won't happen, I just have to suck it up and deal with the potential to have a shitty round because others think its fine as it is.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
1 November 2016 - 09:13 EDT
yea right it's just a coincidence that this thread appears right after the match
fixed spawns cause people to become lazy with their strats, you dont have to consider any other tech paths/pve placements/gorge tunnels if you know you're always gonna get the same spawn
it's why biodome is the most boring map in this game
apart from a certain map that's still in the rotation although literally nobody wants to play it
fixed spawns cause people to become lazy with their strats, you dont have to consider any other tech paths/pve placements/gorge tunnels if you know you're always gonna get the same spawn
it's why biodome is the most boring map in this game
apart from a certain map that's still in the rotation although literally nobody wants to play it
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
1 November 2016 - 09:34 EDT
It is because I played it before and was again reminded how stupid the spawns can be and how unfun the map is.
1 November 2016 - 09:49 EDT
I think it would be the best solution, but it would require modding or a present referee. Resetting rounds until you get the correct spawns isn't really practical.
1 November 2016 - 10:22 EDT
I've been of the opinion of setting fixed spawns of north and south. Marinestart fabrication and alien dronebay. Some others have said they'd want it the other way around. I couldn't care less what some random person on the internet considers boring.
EDIT: To add, HBZ did play a scrim against CI on this map the other day. So I assume there is where Home made his opinion. Not the official of d1.
EDIT: To add, HBZ did play a scrim against CI on this map the other day. So I assume there is where Home made his opinion. Not the official of d1.
1 November 2016 - 11:28 EDT
descent is fine, if they were smart theyd go mines on launch spawn but they didnt. also star coulda canceled upgrades and relocate drone but he didnt. dont let misplays of others determine what maps are being played this season. bauer also lagged so there's that.
docking2 on the other hand.... get this shit out p l e a s e. gathers sure but officual televised matches?
docking2 on the other hand.... get this shit out p l e a s e. gathers sure but officual televised matches?
1 November 2016 - 11:53 EDT
The thread is not about the d1 game as stated before. Please don't derail the thread because you are so high out of your mind you cannot form coherent thoughts. It encompasses every game concerning the map, previous seasons and current.
1 November 2016 - 12:33 EDT
true, and apologies. i was mostly trying to inform people that this map isn't "unbalanced" because of random spawns, or that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win with launch spawns. there are alternatives and strategies you can do to play this map.
it was clear (as bauer said) that this thread was spawned off the "cheese-y" base rush which ended a game rather quickly. so i see this thread as a manifestation of the frustration from the viewers of not seeing a 'good game'
as migalski said, this map is fine. it's fun. there are tons of cool strategies, you just have to Expand your mind a little bit.
1 November 2016 - 12:41 EDT
Which is entirely false, the thread spawned from a PCW played between the teams HBZ and CI which I believe Home can confirm as well. I also stated this earlier.
1 November 2016 - 13:00 EDT
Of course I can confirm that, I even said that myself there. Also people seem to forget THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST GAME PLAYED ON DESCENT. So get off your high horse please Bauer and phonee and so on and stop arguing with misplays / l2p things and instead try to understand the complaint. Descent is in no way fun, and if certain spawns force you to use certain strats doesn't mean it makes it more interesting, it only means it makes it inconsistent and therefore should not exist in a competitive environment. Everyone should start with the same conditions and that is clearly not the case on Descent.
Fixed spawns is something every map should have, it takes out some kind of RNG, but it is even more important on this map.
But yea, this map can be fixed, every map can, but right now I consider it not qualified for competitive play.
Fixed spawns is something every map should have, it takes out some kind of RNG, but it is even more important on this map.
But yea, this map can be fixed, every map can, but right now I consider it not qualified for competitive play.
1 November 2016 - 13:14 EDT
spawns dont ever force you to use any strat
what you consider qualified for competitive play is clearly not a QUALIFIED opinion my friend /horse
what you consider qualified for competitive play is clearly not a QUALIFIED opinion my friend /horse
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
1 November 2016 - 13:19 EDT
ya definitely. sorry about that i just saw this as a reaction to the official i played.
that's just like, your opinion maaaaaaaaaaaan
but seriously, the fundamentals of this game is that it is an A-SYMMETRICAL RTS/FPS hybrid. fixed spawns on every map is FUCKING HORRID and a stupid idea. it works for some maps (ns2_nexus) because the map is DESIGNED With that in mind.
launch spawn doesnt FORCE you to do any specific strategies, none of the spawns force you to do ANYHTING. if you're weak to base rushes there are a multitude of things to do: mines, a fast 2nd ip, fast armor 2. you can even go OBS first and beacon when a base rush happens. this also buys more time for marines to come back and help because they have to chose to either kill the obs (which takes time, or camp ips and camp the CC)
all of these things combined can help you stop a base rush. and i will argue that you need to Learn to play.
1 November 2016 - 13:32 EDT
Let's put this on a very basic level. No map is truly symmetrical. No room is the same as another. No vents are the same, neither are vent locations or routes. When it is possible that teams spawn in different rooms, they have not the same starting conditions. Same conditions however are a requirement for comp play. I hope you all can agree on this part.
The question is if the consequences of that are big enough to be relevant. I think it is relevant on Descent, you think it's not. I think if you are not gonna fix spawns, atleast enforce that in the same match, teams start in the same positions.
Also please note that this is not the only part I don't like about Descent as I said before.
The question is if the consequences of that are big enough to be relevant. I think it is relevant on Descent, you think it's not. I think if you are not gonna fix spawns, atleast enforce that in the same match, teams start in the same positions.
Also please note that this is not the only part I don't like about Descent as I said before.
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