'jiriki'

This happens but in my opinion 30% is WAY overstated. I could probably find a way to check this. Wanna bet money on this? What I learnt from economics is that people talk bullshit but when its their money on the line, the bullshit walks. And I don't see how marines would F4 more than aliens, on the contrary, it seems to be the opposite.

Hagagah, thought you'd say that! I believed it when I wrote it, tbf. Hence why I want you to bring out the stats from officials so we can compare them... see? :P

PS. No I don't wanna bet money on it! I wanna bet money on pcw vs aa, multivac that we agreed on. I draw or win vs aa/multivac's team when they have to never drop an rt and I can choose any 5 I want... fully able to drop rts. like they agreed, lol!

PPS. pissy piss pipaddy piss

PPPS. How could you find a way to check this? (Bet I could always think of a hypothetical that could question it! lol)

PPPPPPPPPS. Yeh I completely believe you about people, there's a sharp rationality increase by people who have something to lose. I think you meant to say 'far less' bullshit? That's what the link you posted explains anyway... Anyway, this is kinda obvious, adrenaline makes you way more focused, dopamine too... trust someone who abuses drugs! :P

BS. Why would it be the opposite though? If you're starting and the comm chair fucks up or you have an afk.. i'm sure that happens to marines way more! I'd say it was like exponentially in favour of the team that wins more being the team who f4 less, so 30% was imo a reasonable guess on assuming that aliens won like just under 60% of rounds. But that's largely due to the dynamics of a gather supporting an alien resource model for early game; late game is kinda different so you can't really put the types of balance 'side-by-side' without getting waaaay complicated! I'd rather just keep all 'times' of the round as level as possible.

'Danny'

Fact is 200fps gives the following benefits:

+ acceleration speed - makes it harder for fades to hit jetpacks. It also allows jetpacks to HUNT fades, wich isnt possible with 111/125fps where fades can actually attack and get away with it.

+ amount of fuel - jetpacks can hunt fades way longer than normally. Combined with the much improved acceleration, a jetpack can follow a fade through several corners without losing track of the fade. This is absolutly impossible to do with e.g. 111fps against any decent blinking fade.

+ firerate - HMGs get devestating dmg/sec ratios especially combined with w3/catpacks. Basicly this is the same as creating a new weapons upgrade and calling it w4, while not giving a fourth DC spec to aliens to balance it out.

Skill or not, there is no denying that 200fps radically changes the balance of the game and changes what jetpacks are in terms of unit compleatly.

Jiriki, how do you figure 200fps gives intented DPS? I find that ridiculous, the game is not intended to be played in developer mode. The intended firerates are the ones you get with 100fps, wich is max in HL1 based games in non-dev mode.

Well said?

I'd say that jiriki has sorta addressed these issues with the 3 chamber fade vs jp scenario being 'more fun'.. which is spot on cus like, fast fast pchew pchew! but i'd say that 1 hive alien vs jp is quite fun to have a bit of a 'come back' possibility.. with jp on 200fps danny's clearly stated how jp can be far more overpowering vs 1 hive fades with things like it being 'easier to chase fades due to amount of fuel, etc'. overall putting a big flying smack up the arsehole of the 'comeback' possibility.

Just one different hypothetical situation with a different dynamic to the 'fun factor'. There are many more.

jiriki

As far as the DPS goes. It is actually the intended DPS.

I still don't understand how this is possible. Surely the devs knew people weren't running the game on 200fps when designing the game. And even if they thought people were, the fact that people actually weren't resulted in gamer feedback that had the effect of them balancing the game for players using lower FPS/DPS

jiriki

The aliens already win most games, so its not "over-powered". I just did a quick check from logs, the win ratios were (999/2205), confirming my doubts. Thats 999 marine wins and 2205 alien wins, marines have ~30% win ratio. And probably 80-90% of those rounds are veil.

This is fallacious and I'm not sure why you're making the point given that you've already conceded that without modifying the alien game that 200fps is overpowered. Most alien wins come BEFORE JP has even been researched. As I said before, if marines survive until JP (and they aren't otherwise hugely handicapped - no res/3rd hive up), they normally win. What you're essentially saying is that because early/mid game is biased towards alien, that late game should be biased towards marine. Which is a really stupid way to approach "balancing" the game.

jiriki

You may argue that "well its just bad comms, if every comm was Peach then..." (and honestly do you think the numbers were *massively* different with only high-skilled games? I'd still bet alien rounds would dominate). You cannot balance the game on hypothetical players, you have to balance it with what you got.

Which is funny because the one fade you've so far mentioned who can match up with aA's jp is a player who doesn't even play the game anymore.

jiriki

But as far tournament games go, I agree, it is probably better if it is prohibited for balance and equality reasons. Atleast until we got a better solution.

Why? What is the actual difference between tournaments and gathers other than that in a gather you're much more likely to have even larger skill variance, making a distinct advantage - such as a skilled player with 200fps - yet further amplified.

'LITERALLY_GAY'

What you're essentially saying is that because early/mid game is biased towards alien, that late game should be biased towards marine. Which is a really stupid way to approach "balancing" the game.

I said that too! Aren't we both incredibly fucking understanding about NS.

I FORGOT TO REFRESH THE THREAD AND SEE ALL THE OTHER REPLIES OK YOU FUCKING EXPAT

I learnt a lot from my first and only clan leader.

Like how to quit.
And kiss men.

'LITERALLY_GAY'

Why? What is the actual difference between tournaments and gathers other than that in a gather you're much more likely to have even larger skill variance, making a distinct advantage - such as a skilled player with 200fps - yet further amplified.

So on alien, a very skilled player as gorge will have far less impact than the skilled marine. As long as they shoot some bullets... Assuming 1:1 in skill which is a dumb concept but whatever.

But a high skilled fade would have a much bigger impact, because, well yeah they're the power unit and the res model is way advantageous to individual skill?!

So aliens have advantage in gathers; but in officials, you could say marines are far more likely to be more 'teamy' and make it harder for one high skilled dude on alien to have the same impact. IMO anyway

lump

So on alien, a very skilled player as gorge will have far less impact than the skilled marine. As long as they shoot some bullets... Assuming 1:1 in skill which is a dumb concept but whatever.

But a high skilled fade would have a much bigger impact, because, well yeah they're the power unit and the res model is way advantageous to individual skill?!

So aliens have advantage in gathers; but in officials, you could say marines are far more likely to be more 'teamy' and make it harder for one high skilled dude on alien to have the same impact. IMO anyway

Well they might have the advantage until JP, which is what I'm saying; that an unbalanced advantage for aliens early/mid game isn't obviated by then giving marines an unbalanced advantage in late game..

Well Danny, that is what puzl told me. I guess this is just mincing words, but its not an exploit per se. For balance, I don't think 200FPS DPS is really an issue, on the contrary I think its most welcome for early game. It is true that CataW3200FPSHMG is really powerful but tbh I don't think dying as a DC fade is easy unless the fade is careless. DC Fades are f'king tanks. Just killing the Jetpacks is a problem.

Sweden is going down tomorrow

Skill or not, there is no denying that 200fps radically changes the balance of the game and changes what jetpacks are in terms of unit compleatly.

I agree.

Gay

I'd say that jiriki has sorta addressed these issues with the 3 chamber fade vs jp scenario being 'more fun'.. which is spot on cus like, fast fast pchew pchew! but i'd say that 1 hive alien vs jp is quite fun to have a bit of a 'come back' possibility.. with jp on 200fps danny's clearly stated how jp can be far more overpowering vs 1 hive fades with things like it being 'easier to chase fades due to amount of fuel, etc'. overall putting a big flying smack up the arsehole of the 'comeback' possibility.

Actually I agree. I think 200FPS Jetpack vs 1 hives aliens is way too brutal but I find it very interesting and challenging against full chamber fades. Increasing the cost could probably fix this. Maybe there should be two Jetpacks, 200FPS and normal! Too bad we don't have the client source code. There is way too little activity in NS for puzl to start programming anything anymore.

Gay

Why? What is the actual difference between tournaments and gathers other than that in a gather you're much more likely to have even larger skill variance, making a distinct advantage - such as a skilled player with 200fps - yet further amplified.

I think fixing the cost is enough of a solution, in th meanwhile Danny can ban 200FPS in gathers if it bothers you so much. I just don't take it so seriously like a public server may not enforce consistency so people can play with custom models etc. You get more fun even though some people might get some advantage with bright-colored skulks or something.

Gay

Well they might have the advantage until JP, which is what I'm saying; that an unbalanced advantage for aliens early/mid game isn't obviated by then giving marines an unbalanced advantage in late game..

3 Hives anyone? If marines let the aliens have 3 hives its not like marines have much of a fighting chance anyway. But like I said, the cost should reflect a fitting fade/jp ratio. Maybe we could also adjust the Jetpack fuel.

jiriki

3 Hives anyone? If marines let the aliens have 3 hives its not like marines have much of a fighting chance anyway.

Yeah I already said that in its current state marines are pretty much going to win a game where they get JP, UNLESS they happen to be otherwise crippled (i.e. no res-3 hives). Are you actually disputing this or not? You seem to vacillate between saying it's balaned and not balanced like every other sentence.

jiriki

But like I said, the cost should reflect a fitting fade/jp ratio. Maybe we could also adjust the Jetpack fuel.

Again, who is actually going to make these mods? Are they going to make them soon? How soon?
And adjusting JP fuel would just cause larger problems, because while it mitigates the overpowered nature of a 200FPS JP, it neuters a 125 FPS JP, which shouldn't be neutered. The rest of the community should't have to suffer so that you and aA can get off on tracking fades down for ridiculously long distances.

'gobot'

[quote='aA']wow if someone cant reach 200 fps yet tane then he should finally buy a new machine... i'm sitting on 3 years old computer now and i can easly reach that wtf

well aA I bought an new Comp 2 years ago. Dual core and stuff ( 512mb ATI GPU , 3 gigs of ram and 3.0 Dual core cpu :/ ) . I have stable 125 most of the times ( not while commanding though :( ). But having 200 FPS stable ( especially on gayble) is quite hard for me. I think you have too be lucky having the right specs to have a perfect performance for ns ( half-life). I guess I was unlucky so far :(.

oh and Danny is perfectly right :)

[/quote]

i dunno how much you've paid for it but you most likely you got screwed when buying it, also you can o/c that cpu to 3.0 ghz and you should have 200 fps and i also get fps drops on able. ati card = gg



i dunno why you guys keep arguing about this, it's even harder to fade on 125 fps against jp hmgs(125fps fade vs 125 fps hmg jp), fades do move a lot slower and hmg dps doesnt change this much. that's from what i've observed in last gather cup and most of my team agreed on that.
lump or gay will keep being rolled anyway....... both horrible players, bent over and fuckin accept you're bad and nerfing fps rule will not change that.

and i agree with jiriki that 200 fps added something new to the old game.

'tomato'

[quote='Danny']Fact is 200fps gives the following benefits:

+ acceleration speed - makes it harder for fades to hit jetpacks. It also allows jetpacks to HUNT fades, wich isnt possible with 111/125fps where fades can actually attack and get away with it.

+ amount of fuel - jetpacks can hunt fades way longer than normally. Combined with the much improved acceleration, a jetpack can follow a fade through several corners without losing track of the fade. This is absolutly impossible to do with e.g. 111fps against any decent blinking fade.

+ firerate - HMGs get devestating dmg/sec ratios especially combined with w3/catpacks. Basicly this is the same as creating a new weapons upgrade and calling it w4, while not giving a fourth DC spec to aliens to balance it out.

Skill or not, there is no denying that 200fps radically changes the balance of the game and changes what jetpacks are in terms of unit compleatly.

Jiriki, how do you figure 200fps gives intented DPS? I find that ridiculous, the game is not intended to be played in developer mode. The intended firerates are the ones you get with 100fps, wich is max in HL1 based games in non-dev mode.

Well said?

I'd say that jiriki has sorta addressed these issues with the 3 chamber fade vs jp scenario being 'more fun'.. which is spot on cus like, fast fast pchew pchew! but i'd say that 1 hive alien vs jp is quite fun to have a bit of a 'come back' possibility.. with jp on 200fps danny's clearly stated how jp can be far more overpowering vs 1 hive fades with things like it being 'easier to chase fades due to amount of fuel, etc'. overall putting a big flying smack up the arsehole of the 'comeback' possibility.

Just one different hypothetical situation with a different dynamic to the 'fun factor'. There are many more.[/quote]


1 hive alien deserves to get rolled, if you cant gain map control and you're simply worse than the opponent team then why should we prolong that? and 200 fps has nothing to do with, you're loosing on both platforms; tactical and skill you deserve to loose, that how computer games work, its very brutal to ppl like you that cannot accept the concept that they simply lost and are trying to find something to attach to.

ALSO AMOUNT OF FUEL DO NOT CHANGE, NICE

Yeah I already said that in its current state marines are pretty much going to win a game where they get JP

didnt jiriki gave some kind conceptional win/loss ratio? most of the gathers do end as alien win, you're just in a wrong team for most of the time.

The DPS is not a problem, it's just that the jetpack is faster than a celerity fade, and have easier "changing angles" movement (I mean you can STRAFE while flying lolol). So you can't hit them.

A 1fade vs 1jp should be, if not at the advantage of a 2hives fade, at least FAIR for both. Wich means a way to escape for both, and a way to hit the other for both. Now when a 200FPS jp can just teleport at the other side of the room when the fade goes in, and then teleport back to the other side when the fade is fleeing, so he can chase him, with his nearly infinite fuel, it's not fair.

But a 1hive fade deserves to have a hard time killing a jp or survive long enough to escape. But it shouldn't be impossible either.

'king_yo'

The DPS is not a problem, it's just that the jetpack is faster than a celerity fade, and have easier "changing angles" movement (I mean you can STRAFE while flying lolol). So you can't hit them.

A 1fade vs 1jp should be, if not at the advantage of a 2hives fade, at least FAIR for both. Wich means a way to escape for both, and a way to hit the other for both. Now when a 200FPS jp can just teleport at the other side of the room when the fade goes in, and then teleport back to the other side when the fade is fleeing, so he can chase him, with his nearly infinite fuel, it's not fair.

ROTFL, so you cant strafe with jp with 125 fps, do we play the same game king yo? and cant even chase fades WOW, the how the fuck did you die to my jp last time on gather cup, WHAAAAAAAAT.
jps are tier 2-3 tech and shouldnt be equivalent with tech 1 attacks(1 hive fade)

'aA'

jps are tier 2-3 tech and shouldnt be equivalent with tech 1 attacks(1 hive fade)

I wrote 2hives fade, but I edited so you can understand more easily aA.

aA

i dunno why you guys keep arguing about this, it's even harder to fade on 125 fps against jp hmgs(125fps fade vs 125 fps hmg jp), fades do move a lot slower and hmg dps doesnt change this much.

I'm pretty sure anyone I've heard talk about 200fps has said the effect as a fade is minimal, nothing compared to JP. Given that you're a pretty shitty fade who struggles to stay alive longer than 20 seconds in able let alone low skill gathers, perhaps we should consider their opinions first.

aA

that's from what i've observed in last gather cup and most of my team agreed on that.

What actually happened is that no one could understand what you were saying, so after 8 iterations of "ey!? EY!?" people just said "yeah" to placate your incessant childish squeals for affirmation.

aA

didnt jiriki gave some kind conceptional win/loss ratio? most of the gathers do end as alien win, you're just in a wrong team for most of the time.

Yeah and I gave some kind of "conceptional" response to it, which he hasnt replied to. Maybe you'd like to give it ago using your own brain damaged version of english.

'aA'

everything

*ignored*

JIRIKI, imo, fun perspective again, high cost on jp = less people getting jp = less fun for majority :[ Can't we just keep gathers like they are? Maybe adding a 'fps cap' vote to the gather if people feel like making it so!

"SERIOUS GATHER NOW GUYS, VOTE 125FPS CAP"
(it would never get used *thumbs up*)

if players can't shoot, nothing will help them, not even 200fps. So dont tell that 200fps do the job for you.

No one's said that though

'jiriki'

-- Too bad we don't have the client source code. There is way too little activity in NS for puzl to start programming anything anymore.

That should be more of a reason to give source to us. Although if we were to release our own version it would be pain in the ass to go play public with that version. You know if NS is anyway expandable client side?

TOTALLY AWESOME COUNTER ARGUMENTS GAY, HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

if players can't shoot, nothing will help them, not even 200fps. So dont tell that 200fps do the job for you.

nicely said pyro, face it gay and lump, you just succcccccccccccccccccccccck LITERALLY

i remeber ppl complaining at ha's they are imba... it's always very same people that are getting spawncamped.

'LITERALLY_PENISLOVER'

No one's said that though

'Tane'

It gives you extra few bullets to shoot skulks before they reach you, which is a huge thing. In short, 200fps gives certain players overpowered advantage, which hasn't anything to do with skill.

-.-

btw, 76.6 fps is also some cool shit.

Ah, so the underskilled pubber whose protestations regarding the unbalanced nature of 200fps resulting purely from their inability to play the game at a high level and understand the true nature of skill in NS is................


Tane.


Good job guys.

YES YOU'RE MENTALY DISABLED TO PLAY THIS GAME AT HIGHER LVL GAY.


GOOD JOB GAY

what?

LITERALLY

Great posting.

cant say same about you lol

You're pretty good at this lol

Make jetpacks 18res and let's be done with this