So while I enjoy the Nations Cup idea, the current format works much better for the EU playerbase than NA or AUS ones. Limiting entries to one team per country effectively excludes interested players from many of the larger countries. Having intra country playoffs for multiple submissions from a single nation kind of defeats the purpose of the cup for the majority of those players.

The solution would be to allow teams from subsections of those countries. For example, it could be by
- Timezone (e.g. U.S. PST, EST)
- State (e.g. Western Australia, New South Wales)
- Province (e.g. Ontario, British Columbia)
- Region (e.g. Centre, Burgundy)
- City (e.g. Berlin, Hamburg)

The rules would be the same for the subsections (i.e. only people who live in Berlin could be part of the Berlin Team), but would allow for multiple teams from the larger population countries.

The idea is to field the best team you can. So if anything its an advantage having a large population.
This is the deal in any sport so I dont see why this should be diffrent.

Skuggan

The idea is to field the best team you can. So if anything its an advantage having a large population.
This is the deal in any sport so I dont see why this should be diffrent.

Just because it works for the World Cup doesn't mean it works for competitive NS2. For example, what if we treated the EU not as a collection of countries, but as one 'nation' that could only field one team. Is there any doubt that team would consist of only players from either Archaea, Godar, and miau? Tons of skilled, but not quite top EU NS2 players would be unnecessarily left out.

If this cup was for serious money and/or as a way to get wider exposure for NS2, that setup would be fine. But unless I'm missing some deeper meaning, this is a tourny for fun and friendly competition organized around geographical boundaries rather than clan boundaries. Restricting it to one team per nation unnecessarily excludes willing and interested players from the larger nations such as (but not limited to) the U.S., Germany, France, the U.K., Spain, Canada, and Australia.

Then make another cup calling it something else. This is a cup for nations. Not all players have to participate in all events.

Honestly USA doesnt even have enough top players to field more than one team who can win it anyway?

First off:

Scardy .. America can have their own little cup to find their top 6 ppl .. why not .. have fun with it.

But do not expect the ENSL to do it for you because:

Second: YOU ARE BOTH MISSING THE POINT !

This is a very low profile event so that the ENSL Admins can also have a little break from working for you all the time!

I am guesing some of them are not albinos and do want to see the sun a few times this summer ... so be happy that ppl are doing anything at all !

Greets !

EisTeeAT

First off:

Scardy .. America can have their own little cup to find their top 6 ppl .. why not .. have fun with it.

But do not expect the ENSL to do it for you because:

Second: YOU ARE BOTH MISSING THE POINT !

This is a very low profile event so that the ENSL Admins can also have a little break from working for you all the time!

I am guesing some of them are not albinos and do want to see the sun a few times this summer ... so be happy that ppl are doing anything at all !

Greets !

I understand, but I don't see how changing the rules slightly to allow Team Ontario in addition to Team Canada makes it a huge burden on the ENSL admins. Right now, the tourny is a Europe Cup with a few non-EU teams (probably US, Canada, Brazil, Australia, and New Zealand).

If the US has to organize its own 'States' or 'Timezone' cup, its something we'll consider. However, my understanding is that this organization is transforming itself into a global NS2 comp group (e.g. NSL) rather than one solely focused on the EU NS2 comp scene (e.g. ENSL). In that spirit, I'd prefer to organize all such comp play through the NSL and hope that the NSL can be flexible enough to the accommodate the differing competitive communities.

What is this shit I'm reading?

Well Bob the difference is . if every state of the US sends a team it is .. what 52 Teams? and yeahi realize thhat is the worst case scenario but if we think other countrys will field more teams aswell in the end you get a huge deal because you once again have like 60 Teams maybe which will result in a BUTTLOAD OF WORK . dont you think so?


And yeah the intention is to be global thing with the NS2, but as i said cut the admins some slack once in a while .. Nationscup not that important .. just for entertainment !

As skuggan says, a higher population is just more potential for a better team to fight for your nation. I don't see what makes NS2 different from the World Cup in that regard, surely there are also alot left out of the World Cup who want to play, right? The nations cup is a fun event to get a rough idea about which nation has the stronger players, obviously there is the ping issue which is why it's not taken too seriously. It's aimed at the top players of each nation and the show it provides for the spectators. I don't see any reason to allow several teams from specific nations, that would just make it unfair for the nations that can only field one team, creating an endless spiral of unfairness.

This won't be the last event that is not "for everyone". We have some other ideas floating around, like casters vs referees. Pure entertainment, not really a competetion like you know from the seasons. But on the other hand we also have plans for "night cups" during the summer, which are aimed at the regular clans and mixes. We are all here to get entertained in the end, be it watching or playing events.

During the NS1 days we usually had two US teams: US West and US East. While it doesn't make much sense from a "nation vs. nation" perspective, it did make for better competition. I wouldn't widen it any further than that, though.

Bob. You're too old, fatty.

swalk

As skuggan says, a higher population is just more potential for a better team to fight for your nation. I don't see what makes NS2 different from the World Cup in that regard, surely there are also alot left out of the World Cup who want to play, right? The nations cup is a fun event to get a rough idea about which nation has the stronger players, obviously there is the ping issue which is why it's not taken too seriously. It's aimed at the top players of each nation and the show it provides for the spectators. I don't see any reason to allow several teams from specific nations, that would just make it unfair for the nations that can only field one team, creating an endless spiral of unfairness.

This won't be the last event that is not "for everyone". We have some other ideas floating around, like casters vs referees. Pure entertainment, not really a competetion like you know from the seasons. But on the other hand we also have plans for "night cups" during the summer, which are aimed at the regular clans and mixes. We are all here to get entertained in the end, be it watching or playing events.

The World Cup is anything but a 'for fun' event, as the point is national bragging rights as the 'best' football team in the world. If this is just a fun and friendly cup I don't see why the 'nations' can't be expanded to regions of countries (Fana's US West/US East would work, but I'd love to see it based on timezone; US Pacific, US Mountain West, US Central, US East; the US is a big country).

I also don't follow your logic that it would be unfair to the smaller countries if the larger ones field multiple teams. In fact, the opposite is true as a larger country fielding multiple teams has a greater chance of diluting their top players across several teams, giving the smaller country team's a better chance of actually winning.

It should be noted that Europe has 50 countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_in_Europe). I don't see a lot of concern that the cup is going to be overrun by Team Montenegro, Team Greece, or Team Poland. Logistical concerns are easily addressed via:
- Capping the max number of teams from a nation (I would set it to four, but you could make it variable)
- Giving teams from nations priority over multiple nation teams (e.g. if the cup is already at a max number, a new Team Denmark bumps one of the US Teams)

I made an example of how this could work based on different total teams: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag1oMgs5kglZdElnclNvZ0FYb29WSVQzX1UxYmNjaGc#gid=0

It wouldn't be difficult to adjust them a bit based on which teams actually sign up (e.g. I doubt there will be a Team Russia, so you could give that spot to a Team Norway or Team Denmark or Team Germany #2).

I see the point, you want to play the Nations Cup but you are not on your national team :S

Dont me mad, 1 nation = 1 team, the 6-8 best players of the country.

Salutes

It needs to be a truly multinational event, such as the "World Series" of baseball.

I can't really see a problem with US east and US west, and was actually surprised it wasn't planned like that.
But more feels like it defeats the point of the nation cup.

Verslayer

I see the point, you want to play the Nations Cup but you are not on your national team :S

Dont me mad, 1 nation = 1 team, the 6-8 best players of the country.

Salutes

Even if it was 4 US teams, I doubt I would be on any of them (I'm not in the top US comp players). My point is that NSL should work for all comp playerbases, not just ENSL ones. The current nations cup format really doesn't work well for the non-EU comp playerbase.

While I see your point that the US is a big country what is the point of squishing smaller regions together?

Looking at the doc the scandinavians would be the ones with the short stick as they have a lot of competitive player but are fairly small in population.
The purpose of a nations cup is to determine the strength of a nation and not dominate through its numbers (which already happens in a way).
See as the olympics are handled in the same way it is now.
Each country gets one team. Simply the best out of the pool. Still the US pool is bigger but they dont get a second team. Just the average quality is better.
While I wouldnt mind the US fielding two teams in this tourny due to convenience the proposition you made seems to be going beyond the nature of this event.

Argosh

While I see your point that the US is a big country what is the point of squishing smaller regions together?

Looking at the doc the scandinavians would be the ones with the short stick as they have a lot of competitive player but are fairly small in population.
The purpose of a nations cup is to determine the strength of a nation and not dominate through its numbers (which already happens in a way).
See as the olympics are handled in the same way it is now.
Each country gets one team. Simply the best out of the pool. Still the US pool is bigger but they dont get a second team. Just the average quality is better.
While I wouldnt mind the US fielding two teams in this tourny due to convenience the proposition you made seems to be going beyond the nature of this event.

Ideally, the number of teams per country would be based on the NS2 playerbases in those countries rather than population (e.g. Iceland could probably field a team cause they have enough players whereas I wouldn't hold out much hope for a Russian team). If Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark can all field a team the cup should be flexible enough to allow that just as if larger nations such as the US, Germany, France, Australia, etc can field more than one team that should be allowed too. I just don't think arbitrary geographic boundaries should get in the way of awesome NS2 comp play. If that violates the spirit of a nations cup, then I guess a nations cup is a poor idea for NS2 imo.

Scardy you should create a timezone cup if you think that would be interesting. Cet would rule all

Its unfair if some countries gets more teams since it gives them more chances to win.
One nation one team make the best of it.

Of course this cup is for bragging rights. Thats why its so fun.

Good post Scardy.

Allowing an East & West team for US & Australia would result in a better competition.

LOL Team Ontario. Yeah, right. People were already talking about a Team Canada, and you know how many people we can think of that are worth even having on the team? 4. So to do it by province, Team Ontario wouldn't even exist.


The point of a Nation Cup is to field the 6 best players from YOUR NATION. If someone isn't good enough to make the cut then i'm sorry but better luck next time.

Australia has ~23 million inhabitants. That's less than the Netherlands and Belgium have together, which according to Scardys document should be one team called western europe, even though the netherlands already have a full roster...

So, if Australia needs two teams, i guess germany needs 8 and the USA, well, 27 :D

I don't care if you aren't good enough to get into your national team. If you suck, unlucky. That's what competitive play is about. I mean for fucks sake, this ethos is your national identity.

And if NSL were being truly fair it would only include one team from each nation. Think about poor Oyvind sitting alone with nobody but that android guy to play with.

Dreidel

Australia has ~23 million inhabitants. That's less than the Netherlands and Belgium have together, which according to Scardys document should be one team called western europe, even though the netherlands already have a full roster...

So, if Australia needs two teams, i guess germany needs 8 and the USA, well, 27 :D

Population is only a rough proxy for NS2 playerbase, which is the more relevant factor for the number of teams. That's why I suggest a level of flexibility in which say if Iceland (population 319K) can field a team, they would get priority over Team America #2 or Team Germany #2.

Also, I like the regional groupings better because it allows people who can't get 6 from their country to participate. For example, here's Fule's (http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130190) unsuccessful attempt at getting Team Latvia together. While their may not be enough comp Latvian NS2 players to make a team, there may be enough Eastern European ones. Why should Fule be excluded from this tourny because Latvia isn't a NS2 hotspot?

sublime

I don't care if you aren't good enough to get into your national team. If you suck, unlucky. That's what competitive play is about. I mean for fucks sake, this ethos is your national identity.

And if NSL were being truly fair it would only include one team from each nation. Think about poor Oyvind sitting alone with nobody but that android guy to play with.

Would it surprise you that in a country of 300 million people not everyone subscribes to the 'ethos' you seem to believe defines us?

As one of those 'non-top players' I'll say this: a competitive community cannot be sustained without a healthy pool of low to medium skilled players. Excluding such players via arbitrary national boundaries rather than how they perform in-game seems counterproductive to both the spirit and intent of the NSL.

Because I don't like to only be critical, I've proposed an alternative format that I feel would better accommodate the non-top players in large playerbase countries (the D2-D4 players in the US, Aus, Germany, France, etc) and the top players in small playerbase countries (e.g. Fule in Lativa, but also Grissi/other Godar players in Iceland, etc).

Yeah please think of poor Fana.

When's team Pakistan joining up Sub?


ps. On a serious note, do this cup style and end it asap. Summer kills NS players. I'm speaking from experience.

Who is that jiriki guy? .. Anyone know him?

WHY DON'T YOU USE YOUR FUCKING MINIMAP?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh ... good old times XD !

Just have a competition, get that clown Hugh and whoeverthefuck to commentate. That would be fun wouldn't it?

Then the winners get to play in the NATIONS cup

I do approciate the thoughts and work you put behind this Scardybob, but it's a Nations Cup. A tournament 'for fun' but it's also a serious tournament in the matter of determining the best nation of the world.

I'm all up for the idea of having West and East Team USA, like Fana said was used in NS1, but breaking it down any further than that would beat the purpose of the cup.

There's already an american team signed up. Not sure if they are mostly East or West coast?
Most likely they aren't all from the same 'timezone'.

So if NSL allows two USA teams, the problem isn't who's west or east, it's more what team is going to take that last USA spot in a fair way? Maybe a captain vote in the forums for the new team.

Beating two american teams is twice the fun.