Hello all,

As the second version of the mod has been live for about 2 weeks, we can hopefully begin to start seeing a clearer picture of what things can be improved upon within the game. Balance patch 2 was aimed at addressing glaring issues that needed immediate attention from the stale vanilla balance we'd had for months previously. It has been marginally successful (depending on who you ask) in this endeavor and continues to receive feedback. This version of the mod will hopefully be played for some time yet, and continue to be scrutinized and refined... the next iteration will most likely be at minimum, months away (ideally I think after the conclusion of season 4).

But I think now is the time to begin talking about what direction we want to go in next - there is already talk of some bigger changes in the main feedback thread. The third iteration of the mod will hopefully be aimed at refining game progression (in particular some aspects of the marine tech tree / lack of variety).

There are some big questions regarding gameplay being brought up, some are:

-What direction should the alien commander go in?
-Do we need a shotgun alternative/equal or should FT/GL stay as support weapons?
-Is alien heal stacking still an issue?
-Is the basic marine VS skulk dynamic in a good spot? (should sprint be removed?)

You can read specific issues and ideas being discussed at the top portion of this document, please take a look!: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o1mvGalgCJTswWY2d0pAsegfZq4nUz965vluUyFTcws/edit?usp=sharing
(I want to emphasize that this is all purely just theorycraft and ideas being thrown around)

So, this thread can hopefully be used to post ideas and suggestions regarding the next steps you would like to see the game taken in - this is the patch where we can be a little more creative than previously--- having as much feedback and input as possible is really important here!

And lastly, as a disclaimer I would like to remind everyone to try to be respectful of one another. I guarantee you every single person is going to have different views on what would be ideal - the goal here should be to have a constructive discussion.

I'll post here the same list that I put in the balance chat to see if anyone has any opinions about it.

"So here's what I think for the marine side:

-Upgrade %'s are fine as is. We saw many different numbers tried during BT Mod and 10% worked the best. I don't see any reason to try to rework this.

-Shotguns should remain at 6 shells. Their damage/cost seems okay too.

-GLs needs a little boost to be more effective. I would see this as a small damage reduction and ~8-10% reload speed increase to keep their overall DPS about the same. This puts the GL as an area denial tool, without instafragging lifeforms that pass through.

-The flamethrower should take over a utility role and be a pistol replacement. Details on this to follow.

-The GL and flamethrower change are enough to leave AA tech where it is - these two weapons provide a 'stepping stone' to jetpack tech.

-Jetpacks seem to be in a decent place right now, needs more time/games to look at.

-Marines move around the map too quickly when they're away of alien positioning. Solution is removal of sprint with a small base speed increase. Base marine speed 5.2->5.5, base skulk speed 7->7.25.

-I have no idea how to approach exos. They're so little used that it's hard to judge what issues they have. I will say that I think their beaconability should be revoked before any other changes are made.

Here's my idea for the flamethrower:
Slot 2 (replaces pistol)
DPS less than pistol but not incomparable (~150 dps)
Keep it on the AA
Res cost of 10
Decrease ammo (both per magazine and total)
Similar structure debilitation and gas elimination
Smaller cone
This puts the flamethrower in a utility niche without severely decreasing overall DPS for the group.

All these changes should be considered together, not individually. Comments welcome."

Some thoughts on what's in the doc at the moment.

Marine sprint.
I am against outright removing the sprint. The delay between being able to shoot after stopping from a sprint is an important vulnerability in marine vs skulk gameplay.

Aliens not being able to get timely and convincing clears and constantly replying to marine presence even after getting kills can be addressed without removing sprint by doing some combination of the following.

Diminishing returns of multiple IPs
Reduce time for skulk to evolve upgrade
Reduce alien spawn time
Reduce marine sprint speed
Increase marine RT build time
Increase marine RT cost
Decrease marine RT health

Alien comm
Removing the 60 second no pres rule for alien comm sounds good. I think it should go back to the temporary role it once was back when there were no drifter ability spam, ruptures, bonewalls and shit getting in the marines way. I would like it to just be an interface for researching upgrades and dropping structures. Cysts would need to be adjusted to accommodate this, no infest requirement to drop structures but require gorges to build and have infest appear around structures like in NS2:C.

Framerate++

The question is are there any commanders that wouldn't rather be playing on the field instead of using the abilities, no matter how refined they are.

Too many healing sources
Undecided on the heal stack atm. Regen is so strong on lerks and fades atm though. Unless playing against finnish aimbotters. Obviously regen won't help you against shotguns so there's that trade off. Haven't seen people using muccous even though I still think it can be so powerful. Can give a low fade 200hp in a second still if you get a drifter past.

Adv Metab or Mark
Don't really care about mark. Decent couple of fades will still communicate something like 'focus sg', or 'kill seperated next to the node' anyway. Advanced metab is nice if you're stuck without regen somewhere, haven't seen the healing stack to be a problem yet but most games don't get to adv. metab. Indifferent if it was to replace adv metab or not atm.

For exosuits, remove railgun variant and use it as a welder model and go from there. Ideally a slightly more expensive alternative to sg+welder. Problem is that both the pres and tres cost is high. High risk even if they were good, can tres drop jets as replacements if they're lost but can't replace exos. Can easily end up with tech you can't do anything with.

Flamethrower secondary sounds fun.

Grenades, remove 2 types and just have a single grenade that is just a grenade. Simple.

Some random ideas:

--> Increase dissapear time for GL & Flamethrower (not shotgun) when dropped.

--> Whips can only deal armor damage.
OR
--> There can't be more than 1 whip per room (similar to sentry battery).

Random thoughts:

-Flamethrower-
After talking with Golden, the FT pistol replacement seems like a viable idea. The reduced cost, ammo and dps would make it have a utility role as a structure/umbra dissabler.

-SG-
I personally feel SG is in a good spot right now (shell count and upgrade percentages)

-Advanced Metab-
The healing rates feel good enough to be useful but not OP.

-Hand Grenades-
Need specific roles.
Gas = AOE room deny/PvE weakener
Pulse = Lifeform DPS
Cluster = ??? Someone from Slack had the idea of clusters temp disabling structures like the FT. (wob?) (1 grenade, 5 seconds disable) This would actually give them a useful trait.

-JPs-
I feel the new JP is really strong. Would like to see more testing. (Possibly tweak numbers to allow earlier JPs) *shrug* Problem still lies in the P-Res JP vs T-Res Catpacks. Catpacks are nearly as effective and a lot cheaper. Possible to make JPs T-res only drops???
**spewing out random thoughts**

-Exos-
Still don't see a place for them in comp.

Something to keep in mind with having the FT remain purely a support weapon- Part of the reason that some want it to become a viable mid/long range alternative to the SG is to reduce the amount of SGs seen on the field.

The SG currently holds a monopoly over lifeform killing power and would continue to do so if FT remains a support weapon... this also means the marine techtree would remain more linear and predictable with less variety... I mean sure, FT would be useful as a support weapon, but it would remain entirely optional and niche in terms of the game flow. Thus my fear is you'd likely see the majority of p-res continue to be poured into SGs.

Should SG continue to hold that monopoly?

joshhhy says

Random thoughts:

-Flamethrower-
After talking with Golden, the FT pistol replacement seems like a viable idea. The reduced cost, ammo and dps would make it have a utility role as a structure/umbra dissabler.

-Hand Grenades-
Cluster = ??? Someone from Slack had the idea of clusters temp disabling structures like the FT. (wob?) (1 grenade, 5 seconds disable) This would actually give them a useful trait.

-Exos-
Still don't see a place for them in comp.

The problem I see with a FT secondary is the ability to destroy some alien (forward) bases with ease. With disabling all structures, stopping healing means aliens have no PvE support, but they will also lose their adren regen speed. If the flamethrower keeps the same mechanics as it has now.
Damage output is minimal for fighting lifeforms, but the adrenaline impact means you just switch to your primary and don't need to worry about being continuously harassed by fades.

The DoT also becomes pretty damn effective, considering if you land enough hits it can deal some serious damage for free. Add that to everything else it does and you're soon becoming a one man army.

The usual counter to all of the stuff the FT does is it being a primary weapon you're limited in your ability to deal damage to lifeforms quickly, if you can just switch to a shotgun where is the weakness in taking a shotgun?


Cluster Grenades do deal fire damage already, afaik, which means if you hit a structure it should disable it, however they don't apply any DoT so the structure starts working again quickly I guess.

If Exos are to become viable in comp they need to be completely overhauled, A single marine can rarely solo an onos, albeit now with silly medspam and overextending sure. But a single skulk can EASILY destroy an exo and for all the tres and pres that goes into one, it's a massive waste of time and res. Their damage output seems fine for the most part, but their ability to stay in a fight is useless, even with team support. You are just always better off with a shotgun :p

If the p-res penalty is removed for the alien com I just think there will be a lot of alien com gorges.

If there is a structure limit for whips with other PVE per room it should be 3/4 to make it comparable to the sentries.

I like the idea of the flamethrower as a secondary weapon (though the ammo in it currently seems like a lot).

I like where the SGs are now.

Support FT idea. If you need an SG competitor surely you can use the model ice made?

rantology says

Should SG continue to hold that monopoly?

What happened to the BT's rifle anyway?

snb says

rantology says

Should SG continue to hold that monopoly?

What happened to the BT's rifle anyway?

It was scrapped at the time for...well I don't actually remember the reason.

I suppose we have 3 options here:

1. FT as the mid/long range alternative/equivalent to the SG, it would no longer be a support weapon
2. add a NEW weapon (ice's ns1 lmg?) as the mid/long range alternative/equivalent to the SG and keep the FT as a support weapon
3. Keep the FT as a support weapon and leave the SG monopoly as is

If alien comm has a decreased roll, what about removing whips since Hydras can take their place and combining the chambers again with the upgrade and passive structure?

This increases the risk /reward of chambers like in NS1 and should artificially limit the use if the prices are tweaked.

Hydras would become scarce but viable if only gorges could drop them.

All in all it would limit PvE without hard caps.

You can't really limit whips per room because they're not stationary like sentries. You have to limit the number of them that can be rooted, I guess, but is it easy to distinguish a rooted whip from unrooted whip as a field player? I've never really tried to notice.

If I have 4 whips in a room, and only two can be rooted, will the marine know which ones are threatening vs not? Kind of expensive change. Easier to just arc/grenadde the room.

malga says

Some random ideas:
--> There can't be more than 1 whip per room (similar to sentry battery).

I like the idea, but like Simba said, it's not rly possible to do so :/.

If you would limit the amount of rooted whips per room, is the mechanics of it done by proximity or by actual rooms. Cause if it's by latter it'll be pretty broken. If not then by all means limit them.

I'm all for improving GL/FT, and i might say that them replacing pistols is a great idea, just tweak the numbers down so they don't seem so op. And make it so you can't carry them if you have a SG.

For exo's, lets go back to ns1 heavy armor mechanics, give them welders in off hand, the only problem i really see with them is that the niche in ns1 was they were immune to spore, the bane of la marines. So they need some kind of a niche that makes them worth while. Like their weapons ignore umbra/armor/or the like.

As for Jetpacks, since the argument is vs tres catalysts, make them tres only but decrease the cost to 10. I still favor JP over cata against onii since it's more of a hard counter but it's pretty tough to have that much res to get JP AND 2/2 upgrades with pg's and the med support. I don't think the cost of the actually JP is the problem, but how much you need to get there, maybe decrease proto to 30? Or the time to upgrade them once you actually got the res.

Flamerthrower:
Golden's FT secondary with changes sounds doable. I was thinking the same as Iots, not letting marines have SG + FT at the same time, instead only AR + FT. Would rather see this used, than adding a "new" rifle.

Grenades:
If you don't want to remove the cluster grenade, you could let it do some damage + lifeform/structure unable to regen/stack for a period of time. Cluster + Gas grenades could then ease the pain of breaking a fortified alien whip-room with a gorge. It would also be an alternative to the AA/secondary FT tactic mentioned above and you would probably not have to nerf whips more. This was apparently said in the balance chat room but I'll repeat it, fix so grenades can be picked up from dead players.

"Hero" Exo:
Make it cheaper p-res cost, still beaconable, but limit the number cap to only 1 per/5 field players for example, with pub in mind. Give him a welder like mentioned before, ejectable and remove railgun. Can't shoot while welding, obviously.

Gorge:
Give gorges bunnyhop. (Herakles /o/)

Khamm:
Remove 60s res cooldown for more PVP play and alien aggression. Don't let something like people having potato computers be one of the factors, sorry Jaivol :D Instead you can lower the starting res or p-res tick for kham, if you are scared of early khamm gorges.

Marine:
Remove sprint, add speed increase and WALK button (cs-style). I don't believe the advantage for skulks attacking a sprinting marine (draw weapon timer) is that big for aliens to not consider changing this for smoother play. Also sprint button is abit broken at times.

@Jekt
Reduce time for skulk to evolve upgrade -> Yes or as rantology said, you can choose while dead and spawn with the upgrade.
Reduce alien spawn time -> Yes, but not by much.
Reduce marine sprint speed -> Remove + alternative. (See above)
Increase marine RT build time - > Quoted from king_yo "You could increase the powernode blue print build time, so it would give some more time to the aliens to set up before/between the first/second maybe third pressure but not have a great impact after the early game."
Decrease marine RT health -> Not sure if that's needed.

I think it is a mistake to make so many changes to the games balance instead of maps balance. With game balance you are trying to make sure that all of these changes fit to the maps we will play. Where if you change map balance you can fit each map to the general game balance.

I think the game would benefit more if you looked at a map and thought ok the map is really good for onos so we will run two onos and turtle for that. Or the map has really good rooms for lerks so we will run 3 lerks. Or the game benefits for arcs really well so we will get arcs early. I hear in the pug mumble a lot that the game is also an RTS and so you need to deny resources to deny tech and other things. I never hear how it is an rts so you need to have different strategies. Fear rushes, get mines. Can route block good, get upgrades. Ok fades coming out soon get shotguns and phase gates. The game would benefit more where you don't fear fades because they only run 1 because of map balance or you know you can go late late game as marines because it would be too hard to get a third hive and onos are difficult to use on the map.

@Stranger I don't think that's the way to go because changing maps is an insane job, ask Mendasp for reference. I also think that the game would be most likely boring if for example, everyone played veil with only 1 fade because the map was balanced that way. Most teams already play set pieces like you mention though, ARC on tram etc. There is already different viable strats for the different maps. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding here, but I don't think the balance is quite there yet to just focus on map changes.

(Mendasp fix kodiak so it's not a total FPS dipper !!!!!)

I'd like that people actually gave thought to what they can "remove" from the current balance mod, without breaking (I guess people thought it was broken so it needed repairs? ) the gameplay too heavily. There are changes I believe should be in the official patches

As for the marine sprint - Don't touch it please. If it is touched, we should also touch the weapon-switches and how fast they go between each other. -*-*- On the other hand of this subject the marines does at times need the extra .x movement units - removing sprint would mean that the base speed for a marine should go up to maintain their current map-mobility. On top of that, the combat and the marines juking ability might skyrocket.

The simplicity of the weapon arsenal is one of the things that point towards skillbased play, as the players will need to learn to control these, and control them well - reload, range, spread, feeling of mag. size, and such things. MANY previous changes in this balance mod has been to further reward player skill - this would be the opposite.

I doubt that the commanders will gorge if they recieve the P-res. They will need the bitepower when they have marines inside their base, making bulletholes in their spurs. And the idea of a lerk jumping out of the hive is... ludicrous, and the commander could easily "counter" lost lifeforms by switching with a skulk in the case he is a lerk or, god forbid, fade. Again this points away from the skill side, which we have been going towards.

As a musician I have learned this : K.I.S.S - Keep It Simple, Stupid. (It simply sounds better)

I like balance mod

XxSephiroth98xX: thx.
XxSephiroth98xX: nerve gas should be like umbra
XxSephiroth98xX: where when you hit it
XxSephiroth98xX: it stays on you for a while
XxSephiroth98xX: then it will slowly reduce your armor
XxSephiroth98xX: so you cant just step to the side of it
XxSephiroth98xX: and it can be used to tell aliens not to go through a corridor
XxSephiroth98xX: otherwise they can just fly through it and take like 10 armor damage
Golden: why are you telling me this
Golden: post about it
XxSephiroth98xX: because its titus mod
Golden: totally
Golden: go fucking post about it

rantology says

Something to keep in mind with having the FT remain purely a support weapon- Part of the reason that some want it to become a viable mid/long range alternative to the SG is to reduce the amount of SGs seen on the field.

The SG currently holds a monopoly over lifeform killing power and would continue to do so if FT remains a support weapon... this also means the marine techtree would remain more linear and predictable with less variety... I mean sure, FT would be useful as a support weapon, but it would remain entirely optional and niche in terms of the game flow. Thus my fear is you'd likely see the majority of p-res continue to be poured into SGs.

Should SG continue to hold that monopoly?

I don't think the other weapons should be designed as alternatives to SGs, but as weapons that can compliment the SG on the field. For a pair of marines, SG+Rifle, SG+GL & SG+FT should all be just as viable as SG+SG.

So, for FTs, keep them as primary weapons, but design them to compliment shotguns.
Shotguns are most effective at short range, so as suggested, FTs should be most effective at longer ranges. This could be done by turning them into mid-to-long range chip weapons with a very small cone of effect at short range and a massive AoE at mid-to-long range (or upon collision with geometry). I have no idea what an appropriate DPS would be, but this new FT could be used to flush out hidden skulks and to chip at approaching or retreating lifeforms.

Mark
As Parasite already exists (and is available to the base lifeform, without research), an ability like Mark should be accompanied by a damage multiplier or something. See the Marked for Death ability from Worms (x2 damage received from next hit).

A new Weapon for Marines? YES PLEASE!!! LMG? awesome! Finally some Variation in the Marine play would be really awesome! More tactics and possibilitys will be greatly supported, atleast by me.

Now, why would an EXO with a Wielder be more effective or viable? can anyone explain pls? cause with 1 Wielder he still can be killed by 1 skulk, and is just a slow Marine that costs tons of Ressources. And he wont be the one Recapping. Atm i think the only propblem with Exos is that they are taken out so easy, especially alone (that needs work) and the high ress cost.


I dont understad why a 6th player on the Alien side is needed.

And correct me pls if im wrong, but as far as i can see atm Aliens win way more then Marines. Might be different in Prem, but as for the rest im pretty sure about it, so why do we need to slow marine agression, and give aliens a 6th player on the Field? Both of those points make no sense to me.

Flamethrower: As a support? with lower Dps and clips but same abilitys? WHO would use it? you NEVER use it now as soon as aliens come in sight, and against buildings the Shotgun is faster in killing them, BY ALOT! I dont think that a Support Flamethrower would help any at all tbh. Make it a Usefull weapon or leave it.

Random thoughts

Skulks: Could be smaller(50-25%), faster strafing and maybe a little faster base speed.

Gorge: Would be nice if bellysliding backwards + spitting while taunting was possible. Or add bhop.


If you want to lower the amount of shotguns then maybe increase pres cost a lot(to 30?), but lower tres sgs to 15? Or maybe even remove pres shotguns completely. Dropping too many will hurt you upgrades etc.

ABadHabit says

Flamethrower: As a support? with lower Dps and clips but same abilitys? WHO would use it? you NEVER use it now as soon as aliens come in sight, and against buildings the Shotgun is faster in killing them, BY ALOT! I dont think that a Support Flamethrower would help any at all tbh. Make it a Usefull weapon or leave it.

As support, flamethrowers would let you disable every structure in a room, no healing, no hydras, no whips attacking you. Making the shotgun cleanup considerably faster/safer. Also flamethrowers do awesome damage to cyst chains.
Plus if you're 2 marines, one with a FT, getting some hits on a lifeform means it's way less effective with much less staying power in a fight and missing shots with a FT is pretty hard to do.

Hi

You can't be serious. Please tell me you're not serious. :(

psico says

MAKE LIFEFORMS AND UPGRADES FOR FREE AVAILABLE AT A FIXED TIMELINE!!!

Worst idea EU

decoupling the res system from the game is not the way to go, psico. This means a team that has worked hard and is winning early game is worthless, because no matter how well they do, as long as they don't lose the game, at time X, they will get upgrades or rewards. Instead of having to EARN it. This essentially means the early and mid game won't matter at all. Just the end game, and who has the best end game plays.

What you wrote doesn't even address what is done with the resource system. Is it scrapped? Is it even important. All it becomes is a objectiveless arena battle where the only point is just kill things and make sure you don't "lose". So long as you just turtle in base, you can't lose. Wait until end game, and then make a play. There's no purpose even risking losing the game early by leaving base. Both teams just turtle until end game. wtf

Also, this thread isn't for "how to make NS2 my ideal video game" or "how to fundamentally fix NS2". NS2 being "broken" is a subjective opinion we're not here to determine whether it is or is not broken, or how to fix it. We're here to suggest small balance changes (as per the goal of the balance mod) that can make NS2 more fun and competitive for those of us who choose to play it competitively.