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- 19
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- Gelsenkirchen!, Germany
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- 25 April 2012
I only want to balance the problem that you need upgrades to kill fades... you ever tried to kill fades wit w0 and au1 ?
the game always goes in the direction to get upgrades and to get fades... for the marines you cant say ok lets skip upgrades and go for exos. ok you can but this is not a "balanced" game. you can't go exos and for upgrades because the tres and pres system will not work with this. ok make exos cheaper and not so powerful is an idea but why we need this? what will the aliens get for this? everyone said omg no RES for kill in NS 2 thats so stupid. now we have this and everyone says nothing. Maybe it was a wrong idea?
For me the Res System is broken because you have no options to make more than one tactic because the res system gives you not this option.
I dont want to get whips in every room. but i want to see that the alien commander not need to build only rts in the first 15 minutes in the game because to drop a early hive is useless and to risky and gives u nothing because you need the pres and without the rts you get no pres for the lifeforms. but its ok if you stop thinking about make more than change some numbers.
btw: we tested with the balance mod different build times for rts and played with the hp and it was often totally stupid and changed the game dynamic so much im not sure why you want to try this again O.o
btw2: pls remember ns 1... ns 2 is not ns 1. different res system, different engine, different gameplay :/
Some of my thoughts considering some of the feedback so far:
http://i.imgur.com/lDZXaGp.png
You'd probably need to add additional restrictions to Jetpacks to ensure they remain in the late game (requires 2/2 to research or something).
And to clarify to idea about commander p-res, the comm would start with p-res and gain p-res outside of the hive, but not while inside the hive.
-/AUS/-
- Posts
- 22
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- Australia
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- 16 November 2012
Although I think the comm should gain p-res while outside the hive, the comm should still start on 0 (or reduced) p-res. (ditto for marine comm)
This would mean that although they still can't have much of a role in the early-game, they'll be capable of gorging, buying welders or dropping mines as the game progresses.
el'pheer
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- 7
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- Finland
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- 12 December 2012
Marine comm won't be outside of the cc that much that he would even gather that 3 pres for a welder so mostly it will help the aliens. Alien comm on the other hand wont gather more res than what is needed for a mid game gorge or a late game lerk. Ofc this is the assumption that they both start from 0 pres.
- Posts
- 58
- Location
- Canada
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- 14 November 2012
turning exos into HMGs doesn't seem like all that bad an idea. Give marines the option of just trying to brute force fight onos/umbra/gorge with exos.
Can the cost of the protolab be reduced and the actual jp/exo/dual tech be bumped up? It would make balancing the techs/timing themselves easier and make for a smoother transition. want jps to be late game? just make them cost like 30-40 and 2 min to tech
As for healing, tune down the passive effect of crags and tune thier active effect up? give commanders more things to do
One more thing, change cluster grenades from flammable to structural damage. Provide a cheap alternative to GL/Arc for busting like 2-3 whips+crag. Maybe up the damage a bit but lengthen the trigger delay so it doesn't wreck skulks but still really chews into mass PvE.
pubstars
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- 225
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- Germany
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- 27 September 2009
Restrictions = Bad
Possibiltys = Good
Restrictions:
Longer buildtimes for Marines
Remove Marine Sprint
(bouth are in my opinion bad ideas and are hard to balance trough all divisons)
Possibilitys:
Gorge bunny hopping fuck yeah gives him more use
Skulks faster and smaller well ns1 proved it works i guess its a possiblity ;)
Commanders gain pres is welcome but yes let them start at 0 but you know what = more possibilitys
Exo use pgs + cheaper yes and please make welding eachother possible
(not to sure if that will fix the problem that they get easy killed but it helps a bit so)
Now i explain why Heavys/Exos where viable in ns1 and never are in ns2
Lets face the ns1 senario:
HA had nearly the same walking speed as Marines
HA had often a Welder could carrey every Wepon
HA didnt take damage on spores
HA can weld each other
HA where viable if the other team didnt had onos or your team jp/hmg support "kinda" hardcoutner to fades (especialy when they had sgs in the hand)
Lets see the NS2 senario:
(what is hard for me cause i still dont get how to use them properly today):
They are gigantic walking tanks that have to be babbysitted but if doing so they do "tons of damage"
They can defend a area pretty good if they have some sort of backup
(i think thats it)
So in short exos need to be Faster need to use PGS need to get smaller need to change wepons and need to weld each other. (maybe give them something usefull like the being immune to spores but this time make it like being immune to spikes (makes even sense with such a strong armor) )
I fail to put it in words to say why the flamer and gl as secondary wepon idea is bad so i let this stand like this here: Flamers and gls as secondary pistol/welder replacment are bad.
Work In Progress
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- 1
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- United States of America
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- 26 January 2014
I was just told some of the proposed changes yesterday and wasn't happy. I best voice my opinion. I was told the balance mod would have number tweaks to achieve better balance. However, what is being proposed here in this thread (Similar to some of the last thread, v2) are HUGE gameplay changes.
Marine Sprint:
Removing this is a huge gameplay change. Not only will it ruin early-game timings but also remove a gameplay aspect of knowing when to sprint and when not to sprint. Sprinting allows you to accomplish moving faster, but at what cost? Inability to shoot while sprinting, and slightly thereafter, along with making significantly more noise. I understand a few of these things are brainstorming, but just because you think removing a mechanic is cool or even plain hate a mechanic, does not warrant it being added/removed. I've never heard from another player, "Damn, I would have gotten this RT down if that marine wasn't able to sprint.", or rather complain about it. What warrants it being removed?
Alien Comm:
The "defender's advantage" was removed for aliens when we removed egg drops. The marine commander can still "buy" a shotgun with tres. However, I think I've heard many people complain about commander's being on the field, causing frustration of having to fight 6 targets instead of 5, making things harder. If the issue is that Alien commanders feel locked in a boring seat and have little to do, then maybe that should be the focus rather than having them possibly play on the field as a Lerk/Fade mid-game. Aliens also already have the advantage of defending, with infestation abilities, hive healing, and an extra skulk coming from the hive.
Marine techtree progression:
This exo change sounds like a "cool idea" rather than a needed idea. Why try and force an unused mechanic into the game when the alternatives (Shotguns) are always going to be better? I understand the want to implement variety into the game, but in the end when you're in a serious position you aren't going to play with the toys; you're going to stick with what works best. Adding variety can create unforeseen issues.
In essence, just because you like/hate a mechanic or think it'd be a "cool idea" to implement/remove something, does not warrant it. Something should only be addressed if it's an actual balance concern and causes issues, rather than adding things in and hoping they work.
Removing PRes egg drops? Valid, addressed a major concern of allowing aliens to by-pass the game's mechanics. Removing sprint? Unwarranted, where are the balance issues regarding this mechanic?
Div2orDisband
- Posts
- 46
- Location
- Bruges, Belgium
- Joined
- 6 April 2013
Removing the pres penalties for being commander or entering hive/cc would be a good start. I don't see any reason not to.
Making FT and GL secondary weapons to replace the pistol, is an interesting idea. In the end, it could make LMG/FT or LMG/GL marines appear on the field, thus indirectly breaking the shotgun monopoly to some extent. Probably need to tweak damage outputs (should mainly be effective as anti-PvE and not so much as anti-player imo) and increase the time it takes to switch back to your main weapon.
I always liked how sprinting has a vulnerability to it, as in making you louder and the time it takes to switch to your main. Not sure if removing it entirely would be that great, but reducing sprint speed slightly wouldn't hurt I guess.
- Posts
- 58
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- Canada
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- 14 November 2012
alright, just throwing some ideas out there. These may be a little extreme, but i think they can generate some good discussion
- make crag/shift/shade tech paths(upgrades) cost much more and not linked to hive. Idea is to remove the artificial gate to one of the only permanent tech progressions aliens have and attach a non-trivial cost. This opens up an entire new path aliens can go down other than get more hives of spam more whips. Alien tech is moving in this direction already, with a more open style of picking and choosing what techs you want at given moments. Makes since since alien pres tech is linear; infinite tres flexibility, constrained pres flexibility.
- in the same vein, shift ability upgrades around so aliens have more late game tech. stomp/spores/stab/web should be tuned so that they're expensive but substantial upgrades to the lifeforms. Remove the third hive gate because three hive aliens have already won the game. The point is to allow access to these abilities if aliens really want to pour tres into emphasizing a lifeform or have just gone into the lategame and need a somewhat reasonable answer to 3/3 jp marines.
- split marine tech into distinct paths. Maybe an 'aggressive' tree a 'defensive' tree and a 'utility' tree. Unlike aliens, marines aren't pres constrained so making their tres tech more constrained seems like a good counterbalance and would also fit in easier with how marine tech currently works.
agressive - sprint as an upgrade, hand grenades, jps, shotguns, catpacks, weapons 2/3
defensive - nanoshield, gates, exo, arc, turrets, armor 2/3
utility - mines, gl, FT, powersurge
Like A Glove
- Posts
- 8
- Location
- Australia
- Joined
- 9 February 2013
After playing quite a few scrims/pugs/matches on this second iteration i'd first like to say congratulations and thanks for making NS2 a lot more enjoyable. But i do have a few thoughts.
Umbra + Regen Onos is absolutely ridiculous, this is really obvious on tram when the onos is a thousand times more agile than it used to be and level 3 SGs barely dent it. We've had a few scrims where aliens literally just stall on 2 hives and 3 resource towers until they can bring in an onos with lerk support. It isn't even regen that is the problem its that Umbra reduces far too much damage essentially making W3 useless.
In every scrim where we have played against a relatively evenly skilled team, i have yet to see Aliens lose a round with regen + umbra Onos. This has led to several teams continuing the PVE spam along their naturals + a second tech point, and then stalling the marines until they get enough res for an onos.
My solution would be to bring in the HMG (Unused model already ingame) which acts as the marines late game counter.
Envy
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- 28
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- Australia
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- 23 November 2012
There's barely any people making the jump into competiive ns2 as is. Why is that even the concern? The concern should be about retaining the current players. We will lose more then we will gain if there's not some significant changes/gains made.
Only need to look at the premier ensl games. There all boring as bat shit to watch compared to what it was. alot of cheese.
- Posts
- 42
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- United States of America
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- 26 March 2012
Premier games are like that because we're all coming down from the NS2WC. Teams played/practiced really hard for weeks/months before the NS2WC. Now, as expected after, teams are much less prepared. All of the premier teams playing this season would still probably s tomp all the premier teams of last season. It's just compared to how precise everyone was in the WC, it seems like we're running in slow motion in season 4.
Skill Issue
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- 57
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- Canada
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- 27 December 2009
I think most of us in the Premiere division are as what Gorgeous said, we're still a little tired from all the practicing we did and time spent in NS2 prior to the WC. I'm sure once the playoffs hit, it'll rejuvenate the Premiere scene. The regular season is fine and dandy but in the grand scheme of things doesn't really matter. Teams will be trying harder once the playoffs are in motion.
And in regards to boring to watch, then don't watch. I'd much rather watch a 5 minute Premiere game where the marines get caught out of position, than watch a D2-4 where games become stale because both teams have no idea what to do.
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- 57
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- United States of America
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- 25 October 2009
This idea comes more as an improvement for pubs (i will be starting a server soon that runs comp mod) but might benefit comp play.
Grenade Launcher:
Primary: Fire a grenade that has a timed explosion and does NOT explode on contact. (It would be nice to "charge" or "prime" the grenade by holding primary fire, but not necessary)
Secondary: Fire a sticky grenade that only adheres to structures. (This grenade will still act as the first when it comes to floors, walls, and lifeforms.)
Imo this will make the GL much more skill based and less spammy. No more catching skulks, lerks, fades in the face with that lucky grenade. This also makes it so you dont have to tweak numbers. If the grenades are made easier to see they will be easy to avoid. The only viable way to kill lifeforms would be catch them near a structure and wall or time a volley down an escape route.
el'pheer
- Posts
- 136
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- Finland
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- 7 May 2005
My mind is going wild with different scenarios, if you could prime nades with the GL demoman style, with 4 nades it would defo be op as fuck, but if you can only do it for 1 it'd make it hellava easier to survive in your a-typical "reloading-gl-i'm-dead" situation.
Very interested to see how that would play out in ns2.
- Posts
- 10
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- Oxford, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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- 20 January 2013
I don't know if anyone is following stats for the recent lifeform changes, but they seem to have destroyed the balance at the moment. In almost all games I've played in so far since those changes, either in div 3 or mercing for div2/1 teams, there has simply been no answer to the never ending stream of lifeforms.
You get the big kills, but no sooner than you need to recap/recoup, and they are up again before you can get the pressure really going. Unless you kill like 3 full waves of lerks and fades, you cannot get enough breathing space to kill harvesters sufficiently to stem the alien res flow.
It might be working for the top teams (I have no idea though as I've not watched any matches for a while), but it's really, really not working at all for the rest of us...
el'pheer
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- 136
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- Finland
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- 7 May 2005
Doubt these are precise was watching NCIS while taking down the times but should give you the basic timeline.
from 0 res with 3 rts lerk(20res) takes 6:38
from 0 res with 4 rts lerk(20res) takes 5:01
from 0 res with 3 rts fade(35res) takes 11:38
from 0 res with 4 rts fade(35res) takes 8:46
If you let aliens have 5 rt's you're fucked anyways, but the point is, you have your windows to do economic damage and i'm pretty sure the lower division(read less skilled) teams aren't just using their time effectively. Should we care? I don't.
**edited time
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- 29
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- Denmark
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- 31 October 2012
I will admit, I have not actually thought this through very carefully, it just crossed my mind and thought I'd throw it out there.
One of the main problems with jetpack/exo seems to be that it's a heavy initial tres investment in the AA, and that there isn't a natural stepping stone between AA and proto as long as GL and FT remain as they are atm. What if you made the AA unlock all the upgrades (SG, mines and grenades) without researching them individually. In effect so that you save the costs of the individual researches.
A team that wants to utilize mines, grenades and shotguns would have to spend 10+15+20 = 45 tres in individual research costs. If you kept the AA cost at 40 tres, or perhaps lowered it to 30 (Keep in mind the research time for AA takes ages), there would be a real incentive to get the AA even if you don't intend on using GL or FT.
Edit: I've already convinced myself it's a bad idea. No one is going to save up that much tres to get even slower tech. Unless GL or FT is changed in such a way that it is useful early game I suppose.
el'pheer
- Posts
- 136
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- Finland
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- 7 May 2005
Ah you're right about 5mins for the 4rt lerk, my notes said that too just apparently was sidetracked a bit while posting it :D.
Whats the idea for next update timing wise, since we're entering playoffs don't think most of us want to get different version for semis and finals, as an example.
