Team Awesome
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Whips also work better now (that's what UWE said at least). So should be easier to hold a hive room.
I think phone makes some great points, and aliens are not having too much trouble right now. Let's allow for aliens to be creative in the mid game.
Well the only problem that I saw with spores out of this discussion is that the only effective way to counter spores are jetpacks. Spores come out in early mid game and jetpacks more in the late game.
So I think we either need to give marines a way to counter spores in midgame aswell or we move spores to lategame.
Ok the only thing I can think as a midgame counter would be FT. But they suck hard so they can't be used unless they will be reworked (which moves away from vanilla). So 2 ways I can think of that would work here:
1) Make the FT an effective full support weapon:
One way to add a nice support feature to the FT is to give it an alternative firemode (blue flame?) which is basically like a giant AoE welder and that welds BUILDINGS twice as fast (maybe even faster building time for structures). Add that to the current abilities that the FT has atm and we have a damn strong support weapon.
The primary firemode would still be as it is with the FT, umbra and spores get burned, PvE disabled and energy drain. Both firemodes would share the same clip and there should be like 1 second delay if you wanna switch firemodes.
Blue Flame would be for buffing teammates and red flame to debuff aliens.
2) Make flamethrower an attachment to LMG (if you buy it for pres)
This way the pres you spend in this would have no draw back at all. You could use the FT without having to suffer in damage output
This idea has been around for ages btw.
If we go for moving the spores to late game I say biomass 6 is fine. Everything on third hive is endgame and you usually don't see that as often.
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I would actually support the original idea of moving spores to Bio7 and increasing damage slightly - AFAIR this worked well enough in the old compmod, so we really shouldn't have to make that big of an issue out of it.
nazi hunter izO
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Exactly what caperp said. Your idea is moving so much further away from vanilla than any other suggestion so far. It would suddenly make the flamethrower a necessary upgrade, change the meta so that people would usually tech AA relatively early and buy FTs.
And you really don't want a specific late game marine tech route (jetpacks) to be the counter to a general (in the game every match) alien ability (you always have lerks on the field) - and you can't justify such an idea by delaying spores at all. It would still force marines to tech jps every game, a normally very rare tech to begin with...
Edit: Oh and you're not explaining why you want spores on hive 2, is it because aliens need spores or because everything else is going too far away from vanilla, or even something else?
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
the reason why I want spores much more on hive 2 than hive 3 is because hive 3 is rarer than jetpacks. There is nothing wrong with it in itself but I don't want spores to be as rare as onos stomp.
Balance wise it would work being on hive 3 (and is still better than having cropdusters)
For The Lolz
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I want to start this message by saying that putting spores on biomass 7 is 100% guaranteed to fix the problem Bauer/Phone is raising, I will never argue against that. It will definitely stop the problem occurring ever again.
But just to be clear, my issue is that it feels like an "over-nerf". here is why -
Moving it to biomass 7 means requiring a 3rd hive, which is rarely seen anyway, and more often than not you'll be wanting stomp/xeno to finish the game quickly anyway... this would mean that spores would be used far less often than they are now in general... not just on the hive pushes. it would relegate spores to be rarely researched (or potentially never, like stab).
Moving to biomass 7 wouldn't only stop them being useful in hive pushes (something they currently do a little too well apparently.) it would mean them being researched around the same time JPs/Exos should be coming up (if they are not up already). which, as discussed in previous posts, means that the time that spores would be effective but not OP has already passed... JPs make Spores almost useless.
I would like to see spores moved to biomass 6. Here is why -
I've agreed that the relatively unseen scenario raised by Bauer/Phone is a cause for concern, but to move spores to biomass 7 is an over-reaction. They are an issue at biomass 4 because they can be researched immediately after the hive is finished being built, which is too fast.
By moving spores to biomass 6, you would then have to wait until BOTH hives are at maximum biomass, and unless the comm is rushing spores, the team will have to wait for other upgrades to be bought too (advanced meta, leap, boneshield, umbra and/or upgrade chambers)... this successfully delays the spores upgrade until later in the round.
Raising spores to biomass 6 also means that if the aliens lose their second hive, getting a new second hive up will not instantly grant the use of spores again, meaning that a "lucky" second hive is not as easily defended until it is at full biomass, at which point it is no longer the "lucky" hivedrop.
IF for some reason this is STILL not considered enough of a nerf, you can also increase the research time and even the cost of researching Spores if you feel it is needed, which would delay it even further (but that is a bridge that should be crossed at a later date).
@meph, Altering the FT is totally unnecessary and is more of a drastic over-reaction than moving spores to biomass 7... spores don't need a hard counter, they need balancing.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
@kash I know that the FT thing would require too much work to deal with that problem but I'd like to see that anyway :P
Always willing to try new stuff in an endless adventure of undiscovered strats and uses. But appearently that's a thing people dislike.
But for why not moving it to biomass 7 I agree with kash.
(On a side note is anyone else noticing this mod becoming more and more dragons compmod aka titusmod again?)
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I would like when flamers could be actually useful, however that is not that easy Meph. Right now it is a hard counter for everything and you would have to adjust that first. Hard counters are usually neither fun nor good for the game.
And such a big overhaul of a weapon or complete rework is something that is too big for comp mod. It is something UWE would need to make, even though we all know that won't happen.
For The Lolz
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I'd love for the FT to be tweaked and made useful too... but I don't think this is the right reason for it.
I also believe such a big mechanical change for the FT is a bad idea, the problem with it is it lacks damage... in PvP you are always better off to be using a different weapon, so it will never be used... if you tweak it so that it is equally strong as a different weapon in pvp, it would instantly become the obvious choice because now it is as good in PvP AND has PvE uses too.
Its a crazy balance to try for, because the slightest tweak will make it either OP or useless... I'm not even sure if their is a nice middle ground to be for it.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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Keats learn how to quote pls. I know you are murican but still.
Snoofed
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honestly i dont knwo why you guys are all reading so much into this "hive 3 is rare spores are being nerfed!!!"
first of all, spores at bio7 can begin upgrading as soon as the hive goes up (which takes like less than 2 minutes with gorge+drifter+enzyme (something the commander can do himself)
upgrading spores also requires the investment of bio6 (which is currently completely unused, giving upgrading bio6 and 3rd hive some significance would be nice)
currently the only use i see for 3rd hive is the final upgrade chamber (xeno and contamination are a big investment and if the marines let you dick around with 3 minutes upgrading biomass (which doesnt do anything to skulk HP past bio4) and still win then im sure u could have done it without echoing whips/bilebombs into the marine base.
2nd of all, youre all suggesting these balance ideas based on gather games YOU have played.
now what if the people who created a video game balanced everything around the worst players in the game, would that be a good way to balance things? probably not. (hint look @ mines and onos changes in vanilla)
it literally took until the end of div1 for people to figure out that:
Hey Maybe R anged Spores at Bio4 is Kinda Busted xD
something i brought up as a problem literally months ago back in october. what makes u guys think that blue flamethrowers and bio 6 spores would be a good idea?
aliens already tech up REALLY fast when they sit on 3-4 nodes (Which is Rather Easy when none of your lifeforms die) why the FUCK are we giving aliens a SNOWBALL MECHANISM THAT JUST SEALS THE DEAL 10 MINs into the ns2 game
hive 2 already has:
LEAP
ADVANACCE METABBOLIZE
UMBRA
W o W it's like each lifeform already gets an INSANEE UPGRADE TO THEIR CLASS
WHYA RE WE GIVVING LERKS 2???
WHEN THEY COST 20 PRES?
TAHTS OS FUKCING IEFFICILISNET YASJHDKFJASDKFJSA YOUre aLSL Os STUPID
also as bauer ssaid, SPORES CAUSE INCREASED STAALEMATES!!!!!!!
hey im NEVER going to push a fucking hive when i see aliens have spores
and in 5 months none of you will either when u figure out how Busted hive 2 ranged spores are!!!!!
wouldnt it be EXCITING IF MARINES COULD LIKE SEE THAT SPORES COULD END THE GAAME!!!!! AND THAT STOPPING THE 3rd HIVE IS CRITICAL TO THEIR SUCCESS!!!! (INSTEAD OF JUST SITTING AND WAITING FOR JPs EVEREYGAME???)
wow wait, would it be even MORE e x c i t i n g if aliens had a BIG MARINE PUSH THEY HAD TO DEFEND WITH ALL THESE COOL BALANCED ABILITIES TO Get their Final Game Ender::: Hive 3 Spores!!!!???
man it's almost like the game fucking plays better when aliens and marines clash in epik battles over map control andd resources. it's almost like the TECH SPOTS are ethere foor a REASON!!!! THEY PROVIDE NEW TECH!!! TO WIN THE GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!KJWeafjweflkjawfkljwelkfjweflk
let mee tell you a stoory.
this is a story of ns1, where every game was --> A1 > W1 >W2> Motion trackingg (OOPTIONAL) > AA > JPS >> WWIN GAME ALIENS f4 BEFORE ANY OF THEIR LIFEFORMS DIE (this was more of a JETPACK PROBLEM BUT The saame idea HOLDS TRUE)
wouldnt it be swell if our new andd improved ggame (ns2) was fun and dynamic and didnt revolve around marines camping 5 rts and aliens camping 4
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I must confess I did not read everything, so my apologies in advance if my ramblings have been said before.
I see logic in the problem of spores being a problem without JP.
I see logic in spores being used never if they are on hive 3.
So why not be done with it and let spores do damage in armour first? Or both.
The logic behind it dealing health damage only was so lerks could be 'viable' late game. And than they changes the spores biomass and/or delivering mechanic.
Well phone if I ignore 30% if your post you present your point of view quite well. The point of the blue flame thing was just to present other options than moving spores to biomass 7 rly it didn't matter what kind of options and I heard good reason (by deck mainly) why not to do it.
But srsly it would be much easier to argue with you if you could stay professional. (Or atleast try to appear to be so)
Also as said before moving spores to biomass 7 is will definately work. It is just that I actively seek options that differ from the rest of the options. Just to open up differnt point of views no one seems to even remotely consider.
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The only way where you could try really new and interesting things would be NS3 tbh.
nazi hunter izO
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lul deck hasn't posted a thing since you mentioned your ft idea just sayin
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
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If no one wants to play with op spores just replace spores with a primal scream biomass 7 ez code gg
Team Awesome
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Yes we could look into changing flamethrowers, grenades, turrets, or other things. I don't know if it's worth trying to balance to get it right though. Sure, they may be used more if certain things were buffed or changed, but does it make the comp game better? I see both sides. It probably seems less than ideal for people to know things that are in the game, but are hardly used. Just because ns2 has all these different ways to play the game, doesn't mean they are all bring you a high level of comp play though.
Exo's are a good example. You could make exo's stronger, but I don't like gameplay with exo's to begin with. Just like I don't like ranged spores, or flamethrowers. I think all 3 of these change the gameplay for the worse. Doesn't mean I am pushing to take them out of the game. I think for comp mod, we want the higher skilled abilities to play a bigger role in the outcome. I don't see the reason to make the lower skilled abilities stronger. I don't think people are considering this enough. Just because something is in the game doesn't mean it isn't on a scale of casual to comp mechanic. If you buff lower skilled stuff, you hurt what comp does so well.
All I'm trying to do is show the other side. I feel like people get so locked into certain things should be in the game and could be a force! I don't think that's the case, and I think comp has worked well because it hasn't done those things in the past. You could agree with all this and still be scared comp mod will be too boring. Just wait for uwe to make major changes. Then we can see how it works in comp. Who knows what the next patches will bring.
Just want to hear the opinion of the community here but what would you think about removing friendly fire on flamethrower?
It is kind of bullshit if you want to defend arcs with it and just kill them yourself.
nazi hunter izO
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you do like 1 dmg to friendlies or buildings. the only problem ff causes on ft is self damage because you dont do reduced damage (normal team damage is supposed to be 30% or something i think?)
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
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Can we please remove conatamination for the next season?
Well Bauer I think I have proven in the last PCW that friendly fire on FT is a problem. You set the environment around you on fire which continues to do damage for 6 seconds. A teammate getting damage in there will take nopticable damage. Same applies for buildings and arcs.
Just ask Kash where I accidently burned our acrs down to 70% health and the need for him to med the fuck out of teammates because of that. Meaning you can't even try to flame fades near teammates to drain their energy because you will do like 20-30 hp FF damage unless the marine actively tries to dodge the fade and the flames.
I mean FT doing FF damage is like Bilebomb doing FF damage. It doesn't make sense
