Idea;
Low range (have to cropdust it)
More spread (wider than current spores)
Shorter duration (around 3 seconds)
More damage (5 hp damage increase from vanilla or so)
Less energy usage (lerks can still dodge and drop more spores)
Reason: high risk/high reward. Might not come into play always, but could be helpful in certain areas of the map or certain situation where marines are distracted where you can make a nice spores play. Would feel less like you are just dropping an anti hive push ability from a distance, and forcing a lerk to play really smart with them.
he pretty much is and I absolutely dislike that idea.
I can't think of any high risk thing that works in competitive ns2 tbh. Look at fade stab. This is high risk / high reward aswell.
i hate reverting lerks to cropdusters there is a reason it even got removed in vanilla.
tbh changing stuff that is never used might be better then changing stuff that is already in use. cause the current balance is not bad its just that some possibility are never used like grenades/flamers seldom mines /exos not too often.
I personally simply want as less balance change as possible to make it balanced.
BUT if you incest in keeping evolving then sure change something but start on stuff that is currently not used much in actual gathers / matches.
Thanks Keats. So we will review if any changes need to be made to comp mod. If comp mod is keeping the lerk starting health from before, the vanilla changes might be pretty minor as of now.
Regarding the crop dust spores, why do you not want high risk/high reward again? I was thinking of putting this on hive 2 which is different than the old spores and there would be some changes to the values as well.
the reason why I don't want this is because it just won't work with ns2s game design.
High risk means no one will use it no matter what, unless the reward is so high that it is OP as shit, when when I say OP as shit I mean contamination with bilebomb level OP. Meaning you can end the game by yourself.
The reason it got removed from vanilla was that someone came up with the idea for comp mod.
The reason spores need to be changed from what they are is that they can definitely be way too strong right now. I'm not saying they're always op, but we agreed 100% that in certain (defending) situations they're just way too strong and can drag the game on when it should already be over. The cropdust is, right now, the only way to keep them on hive 2 because people still don't want to move them to hive 3 (because it would be going too far away from vanilla..?). So the way I see it, it's either stronger spores on hive 3 or cropdust on hive 2.
I do agree though that they'll be used nearly never with the cropdust thing. I personally don't care because either way you don't have stupid op ranged aoe damage in the mid game. And either way you won't see spores used often.
I don't see why people always say "meh, deck just wants to change things with his comp mod for the sake of changing things." - there's not a single unnecessary change in the current comp mod. If you look at old comp mod there were so many more changes like marine move speed and other things. Nobody complained then. But now everyone complains because deck makes decisions together with the community, by asking for opinions on the forums.
New rule, bauer is making great points because he is defending me. I appreciate it.
Everyone is welcome to share their views. I had a feeling that cropdust spores would not necessarily get a positive reaction, but just putting some ideas out there. I do think it's fun when there's skillful/risky stuff in the game. Meph, the whole game is about risk/reward. A fade goes in for a swipe vs a sg. Sure, you could just never take that fight, but the game forces you to in certain situations. That's the game...risk/reward all over the place.
The stab example was in theory what Meph was saying. but it doesn't work in reality because it changes the movement of the fade from what works best. It doesn't make any sense to have a fade sit there next to a marine for more time to do damage. I could see how you could relate this to cropdust spores, but the diference is lerks can dodge and don't have to touch the marine. They can pick their spots and wait for certain areas of the map around corners or wait till marines are distracted. Fades also do distractions too, blinking above marines and buying time. I would say the fade blinking around a marine is more close to the cropdust spores than stab is.
The current spores are a nice walk in the park from a distance ability without any real fear. Spores, as they are now, are not skillful or let's say not that skillful. They are more annoying than anything else. So like Bauer said, I think we are down to 2 choices. Both will limit the use of the current spores. Cropdust balancing on hive 2 where it's a missile lerk move that would be fun to watch be pulled off. Or we move it to biomass 7 and we increase the damage enough to give aliens an advantage once the 3rd hive goes up. I think if we go that route, we are stuck with a non skilled ability that makes the 3rd hive really strong.
I don't want the current spores left as they are or just moved to biomass 6 with no other changes. This is because then we have a non skilled, annoying mechanic affecting the most important part of the round. We also have a situation where it could lead to very long rounds. This could lead to marines having a tough time pushing a hive. Aliens having a tough time pushing back on the phase gates. The current spores help defend a hive, not much else.
I just don't think spores as they are right now are actually that overpowered. Sure, it's annoying to marines when they push a hive from a forward base outside of a doorway, but it just doesn't seem broken to me. It makes marines med more and/or stay near an armory which buys time for aliens to respond to the push or bite res.
Is it feasible to make spores crop dust initially with a second biomass upgrade available at a later stage to change it to ranged?
With crop dust, late game lerks are going be even worse off and unable to defend anything, especially with jetpacks up. At least with ranged spores a lerk can be effective defending a hive push long enough to allow a fade and skulk to hopefully go around and bite some res down/kill recappers. Without range spores, aliens likely need more help defending a hive push and are unable to do anything else with the team.
It's not a terrible idea but then you are giving lerks an easy ability to pull off from a distance. Should it be that easy for lerks? If lerks are having a tough time late game, what about making crop dust spores and spikes do a little more damage on 3 hives? Not sure if that's needed though.
I just threw some numbers together real quick as possible ones we could test out in a beta mod:
kSporesDustDamagePerSecond = 20
kSporesDustEnergyCost = 8
kSporesDustCloudLifetime = 3
kSporesDustCloudRadius = 5
kLerkSporeShootRange = 5 (no idea on this, just picked a low number)
kSporesMaxRange = 5 (no idea on this, just picked a low number)
So this would result in spores having limited range compared to current spores, may work similar to old cropdust spores or just spores with short range. They will do higher damage than current spores for a short period of time. They could also be on biomass 4 (not sure). So the idea would be, marines can still push hives and not worry about spores from a long distance. Aliens can still use spores when lerks aren't being focused or when pushing a gate. This could make the mid game a little more interesting. Would take some skill to pull off in some situations, but it would have low energy usage.
What do people think about having the fade go to vanilla hitboxes for comp? So there are no hitbox changes from vanilla to comp. Also we could then use the vanilla sg spread (which is slightly larger than current comp mod).
This way, all the weapons would work almost the same between vanilla and comp mod which I would prefer. Also, fades might be hit more with rifles, but it makes the fade not walker it. Which might not be a terrible thing and the increase sg spread from the old sg might make it play alright. I also like the idea of the hitboxes staying consistent.
Home, you're just salty and hate me for everything I say, but that's ok. It's a mutual feeling and I can't even explain why. Anyway, yes, there have been lots and lots of people criticizing the current comp mod for reasons I don't understand. Either believe me or ask people personally - or do neither I don't really care. But if you don't then stop doing what you're doing plx.
1. People have been bringing up spores as something you'd use against jetpacks. That's just practically not true. You're never gonna use spores against jetpacks because they can just avoid them SO easily (efficiency vs energy usage), so I don't get that point.
2. Without ranged spores, aliens likely need more [than JUST a lerk] defending a hive push - yes, and that's exactly how it's always been in ns2, for 9 seasons. What would be the reason to go away from that balance of the game? The only point people could bring up for that so far were (lerks have huger hitboxes) and (changing it back is going too far away from vanilla). I'm not gonna explain all that right now but if people want me to I'll happily outline why none of this is a real reason to keep it as it is, when I have the time
please no
please consider how horrible the hitboxes were!!!!!!!!!!
I've figured out what it is that I dislike about some of the changes... the reason behind why I don't like the "changing from vanilla"
Put simply, I was viewing the comp mod as a balance mod... to balance vanilla around 6 vs 6... to "balance" something you do not need to change anything other than values.
Rather than bouncing the abilities to different biomass, or reverting, or outright changing the mechanic, I viewed balance like this -
"X is too strong"
"in what way is X too strong"
"In this way"
"okay, lets tweak the numbers so it isn't so OP in that situation but still maintains its vanilla placement and purpose"
^^^ that is balancing.
You could -
reduce the radius of the cloud
reduce the range the cloud is fired from the lerk
Increase the energy cost
increase the cooldown between casts
reduce the damage
Pick any/all/some of those and you could still tweak it to the point where a single lerk cannot solo defend a hive, but the mechanic would remain the same as in vanilla.
Reverting to cropduster (which was brought in via compmod, and later removed via compmod too, because it was shit) is a terrible idea imo.
Moving it to biomass 7 is too much... if you MUST move it, at the very least keep it on the second hive.
The fact is, more often than not, the number tweaking method is not being even considered... again, I point to boneshield... instant revert... not even an attempt to balance it.
The same is currently being discussed about spores... rather than tweaking the ability to be less op, you're just going to totally change it and hope that works better.
Contamination - "should we tweak the bilebomb/contamination so that the mechanic remains but its not OP as fuck?"... "nah, balls to that, it would take time and effort... lets just revert instead... season 8 here we come baby!"
There was talk of limiting the bilebomb with contamination. So we might end up doing something similar to what you're saying. It might be 1 instead of 3 bilebomb on a contamination going forward.
Regarding the other changes, the thing is spores aren't op'd in a lot of situations. The reason it's being looked at is because it makes hive pushes different than they have been in the past, and allows for an annoying ability that could be better. Not everything is changed because it's op'd. If the gameplay can be better or there is a less skilled thing in the game, then it will be looked at as well.
Good example is health bars. They aren't op'd by themselves, but it was determined comp is worse with them than without them. Not everyone agrees with that I'm sure. So yes, do we want the lerk to have a non skilled ability that makes pushing hives more annoying? I don't think it's wrong to look into that. We can't really nerf spores that much because they do little damage. We have our options (yes we could do one of kash's idea as well): leave them the same, move them to 3rd hive and make a damage change, or change how spores work.
Well we could also go into a completely different direction and instead of nerfing or changing spores directly, we just give marines something so they can deal with spores more easily
a flamethrower for example. ok FT is useless as it is right now (or close to useless). But you can adjust the FT for that, it is needed anyway.
You're trying to force a certain tech onto marine teams to enable them to push hives by doing something like that meph. Also lowering their damage output by a shitton because they're down a marine basically.
1. so if uwe were to implement onos with jetpacks, would you try and figure out how you could "balance" (as per your definiton which I disagree with) the move speed of a flying onos? Boneshield with regen is such a dumb (and just casual-focused) ability, just like hive 2 ranged spores. You could spend hours and hours to find a (in your sense) "perfect balance" between the values, but in the end you only do it for what reason?
2. this was never brought in via compmod, this was the old vanilla hive 2 spores version. since those were never used and basically useless, people came up with the idea of ranged spores for comp mod on HIVE 3 as a game ENDING ability. uwe just took it to balance the massive marine win rate on pubs without having to put much thought into it.
3. explain why it is too much? why do aliens suddenly need a powerful tool to defend hives? what exactly has changed in the game that makes this tool necessary for good balance? aliens were able to defend hives before no?
-> would your goal in the end only be to make spores so weak - but still the same mechanic as vanilla (to make it rookie friendly?) - that you just HAVE it on hive 2 but people don't really use it? or do you want to make them viable? but if they're viable it's still the same problem as before - the way spores work right now just collides with the very basic concept of the game, marines push alien hives (BEFORE THEY ARE FORCED TO TECH UP), spores prevent marines from grouping up, therefore they're literally the easiest tool to prevent hive pushes.
spores used to be THE game ENDING ability on 3 hives, is rookie friendliness the only reason people want that changed?
(my opinion:) again, the problem spores cause at a basic level is that they give aliens a very powerful tool to prevent marine grouping. i have to admit i haven't seen it until phone pointed it out to me, but ever since i noticed it i just can't bare the thought that aliens can have such a SITUATIONALLY VERY STRONG ability to defend their hives - when they shouldn't be able to. aliens with only skulks and lerks can easily defend hives because of the pure res-drain AND dps to marines at the same time (spores+ spikes+ skulk harassment). and at the same time, some skulks can go and bite res... not to mention how it can destroy marines combined with fades too.
it's just that nobody has ever noticed how strong spores could potentially be. in the whole time with our EDGY team i haven't noticed either
I don't mean to imply that it's something to be used against jetpacks. What I meant was that if Lerks have to close distance to spore marines, then they are much easier to chase with a jetpack, and will end up dead. They are, perhaps, forced to expose themselves to certain death to use the ability. My point was not that they can spore down jetpackers and kill them.
Hive pushes can be both full-on and also slow push. A lerk with spores can usually easily defend against 2 marines pushing, whereas a skulk can't necessarily. Sure, you need more than just a lerk to defend against several marines pushing who are committed to taking a hive, but with spores it makes it more difficult. It gives the aliens a chance to dictate the pace of the game by freeing up other life forms.
What I don't understand is why it is a bad thing to make it difficult to push hives with an evolved lifeform defending it. Difficult is by no means the same thing as impossible. It's certainly not like spores can't be countered or that the lerk is suddenly invincible.
It's difficult to bite res with jetpacks on the field but that doesn't make jetpacks broken.
Why shouldn't aliens be given abilities to counter situations? Why is it not OK to have an ability that makes marines reconsider their plans? Why should marines be allowed to push easily? Why can't you just buy a flamethrower? (OK, I think I know why people don't want to buy flamethrowers, but maybe they should consider it if their commander and team doesn't want to deal with spores.)
It's difficult and lengthy for me also to explain all of the reasoning for my opinion and all of the situations that popup in my head, but I'm happy to discuss further.
I don't disagree with you Bauer, I really don't. I can see the issue and agree that it is an issue that needs addressing.
My issue is very hard to explain for me, I just can't find a way to word myself properly. But i'll try (yet again)
When the new comp mod was announced, it was stated that the purpose was to rebalance vanilla for 6 vs 6 and keeping it as close to vanilla as possible. Logic tells me that if you want things to be as close as vanilla you should only be altering values, not adding/removing/changing mechanics to be totally different.
Boneshield could have been tweaked to perform in a VERY similar way to how boneshield works in comp now, without removing the heal etc... by just balancing the numbers.
Contamination can be balance (deck gave a decent example of reducing the number of bilebombs to 1, down from 3)
Spores could have their effected area reduced so that it doesn't cloud up so much of the hive room to split marines so much... or you could make the damage effect armour instead of health... or reduce its damage... etc Making it into the old crop duster is an unneeded change imo.
On the other hand (and this is where my logic can seem confusing to some.) if the idea behind compmod has changed, and its no longer about remaining as close to vanilla as possible, but instead focusses on making 6 vs 6 both fun and balanced no matter what... then values are not the only thing that can be changed.
With this you could potentially add in acid rocket on third hive, or make spores crop duster, alter mechanics as much as you like without any complaint from me about "keeping it vanilla".
If we want to continue sticking as close to vanilla as we can, I will always complain about things not staying "vanilla" even if I like the idea that is presented, because it doesn't fit the goal of "remaining vanilla".
If we want to change the original plan and go for something that just balances and makes 6 vs 6 fun, just say the word. I would gladly stop being the irritating, argumentative arsehole that points out things aren't remaining "close to vanilla"
It's a good post Kash. We have gone over before that things are not all the same. We both agree health bars should be changed for comp so that is a big change from Vanilla. So it's hard to say what crosses that line that we disagree with (boneshield being a good example). I do appreciate your post though and it's always a good reminder. If you go too far away from vanilla, maybe that is not necessary. I think boneshield crossed the line for a lot of people into being too casual.
Spores are not really about it being too casual, it's really open to debate. I don't like the ability myself that you can use it from a distance in a relatively no danger zone. Other people might think it's necessary to give lerks something else to work with.
The issue with your proposed changes to it, it's not really op'd in all situations right now. So if you limit how far it goes or how far it spreads, or the damage it does, you run the risk of having it be totally useless. It already does a very low amount of damage. I think perhaps the best alternative is to move it to biomass 7 and increase the damage enough to make it usable at least when the 3rd hive goes up. That is my preference if you want it to be close to vanilla in terms of how the ability works.
If you reduce the damage (or leave the damage as it is.) I would have thought biomass 6 would be fine... it delays the appearance of spores until further into the marine tech tree anyway, and the minor nerf to damage would make them a tiny bit less effective.
The issue being that mid game hive defence it is too strong makes perfect sense and if this is the issue you're trying to address... delay the tech... delaying to biomass 6 also makes it so that if the aliens manage to get an emergency second hive back up (assuming a hive has already been killed) that spores are not immediately made available again.
I just think that biomass 7 is too much of a nerf... at least TRY it at biomass 6... if the problem persists, then drop it to 7... I just don't like the idea of "over nerfing" something that is so rarely seen that one of the strongest teams in the game at this point stated that they "didn't even notice it"
Your last point there is taking the facts out of context though. We, for one, were never even able/required to make effective use of spores because our only actual opponent who we would lose ALIEN rounds to were placeholder (that's a fact). And placeholder were always, always always every game going jetpacks. They countered the op shit BY ACCIDENT.
but tbh, i've not really seen any team taking advantage of biomass 4 spores to the extent that you're describing either.
If there are any vods showing how OP and game breaking the spores are, please link them, because it would definitely be worth watching.
Either way, I still think moving them to biomass 6 and maybe even increasing the research time would be enough to delay the spores enough for it to negate the issue.
Good points Kash, More discussion will be done on spores before final decision is made. At this point, we plan on not making any changes to comp mod till after the newcomer tournament as the game seems pretty balanced at this point and I would rather not mess anything up for next weekend.
Let me know if anyone thinks any of the following updates should be made before the newcomer tournament, here is the latest list of potential changes upcoming:
1) function Gorge:GetAirFriction() local speedFraction = self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() / self:GetMaxSpeed() return math.max(0.15 * speedFraction, 0.12) - This is a change to gorge bhop. We went over possible changes to initial speed, but it was decided this allows for gorges to keep their initial speed, but would decrease the max speed gorges can move around the map which is really high right now.
2) Move spores to biomass 7 and increase the hp damage on spores by 2. - This is still open for debate (see above debate)
3) +kMineHealth = 70 kMineArmor = 5 - this makes mines a little tougher to destroy with parasites which is for adrenaline or crush skulks.
4) kMetabolizeHealthRegain = 10 -- NSL-Compmod change from 15 - reduces fades healing in fights.
5) Remove lockdown timer on exos - current vanilla timer doesn't make sense for comp.
6) Reduce bilebomb from Contamination - change bilebomb on contamination from 3 to 1.
