NSL

Cr4zy

SpookerZ

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Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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NotDragon says

Ok so I fucked up the friction calculation sorta...
Its fixed now, you should try it again.

Thanks Dragon, this feels much nicer, decay was horrible before and just felt like i was dragging a wrecking ball behind me. I need to actually play a game with it but in a quick practise atleast my lerk inst dropping in speed instantly on flap I could never fly at 12speed without spamming space every .5s before.

And im so glad everyone is calling me out on complaining about the inital implementation that was ultimately broken but you still support it?! It certainly was not working as described or expected before. This fucking feedback....

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Iots

el'pheer

Posts: 136
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If you feel guilty over being an ass, feel free to do so but you really dont have to act like a martyr in every post you make. Just saying.. :s

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Cr4zy

SpookerZ

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That's totally what I was getting at yes...

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bonage

JUST THE TIP

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Iots says

@bonage, i see you're prolly only one here who understood the whole energy management so if you could after testing the current lerk say if it's the same as vanilla, or worse. I don't want to be more gimped in comba as I don't have time to play the game myself atm.

It plays very similar now with the friction fix dragon made, minus the ability to perma glide everywhere which is fine. Energy wise you will see little drop off on the way to combat if managed efficiently, combat energy is probably the same as vanilla. If you played the version before the friction fix, with the initial changes, the weight behind you is now gone and does not impact your ability to get around the map.

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ironhorse

element

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bonage says

Energy wise you will see little drop off on the way to combat if managed efficiently.

Unpopular suggestion inbound:

Flap energy is almost non existent as is.. Why not just remove it?

This makes it more forgiving to newer players, especially in regard to traveling and entering combat, and allows you to escape a room even if you depleted your energy - while also allowing better evasive capabilities because you can really jam the spacebar now and make sound (there's that small buff that was needed] and If you want you could even slightly increase bite energy to account for the change and to ensure it doesn't tip the class into an overpowered area in combat.

Easier to evade and more forgiving in exchange for giving away your position through audio cues; all without greatly impacting combat engagements.

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RisingSun

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ironhorse says

bonage says
Energy wise you will see little drop off on the way to combat if managed efficiently.

Unpopular suggestion inbound:

Flap energy is almost non existent as is.. Why not just remove it?

This makes it more forgiving to newer players, especially in regard to traveling and entering combat, and allows you to escape a room even if you depleted your enerigy - while also allowing better evasive capabilities because you can really jam the spacebar now and make sound (there's that small buff that was needed] and If you want you could even slightly increase bite energy to account for the change and to ensure it doesn't tip the class into an overpowered area in combat.

Easier to evade and more forgiving in exchange for giving away your position through audio cues; all without greatly impacting combat engagements.

I like the idea a lot, but people will be stubborn and instantly say it dumbs the lerk down too much even though lerk skill has more to do with map awareness, movement technique, and accuracy. Very little of it is energy management.

The lerk has received two decent nerfs (5 less vanilla armor and the glide Nerf). No flap energy would help balance it out and give lerk much needed mobility no matter what they are doing.

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Iots

el'pheer

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ironhorse says

bonage says
Energy wise you will see little drop off on the way to combat if managed efficiently.

Unpopular suggestion inbound:

Flap energy is almost non existent as is.. Why not just remove it?

This makes it more forgiving to newer players, especially in regard to traveling and entering combat, and allows you to escape a room even if you depleted your energy - while also allowing better evasive capabilities because you can really jam the spacebar now and make sound (there's that small buff that was needed] and If you want you could even slightly increase bite energy to account for the change and to ensure it doesn't tip the class into an overpowered area in combat.

Easier to evade and more forgiving in exchange for giving away your position through audio cues; all without greatly impacting combat engagements.

Sounds something for vanilla, maybe you should talk about it in CDT? For compmod i'd stick with the energy management, cause it's a huge aspect of the lifeform gameplay and should be one of the issues that separates good players from bad.

In this case you could compare it to the fade, their major movement skill is tied to energy as well. If you would do this for lerk, you should do it for fade as well then. And you can imagine (i hope you can) how fades will become with blink being free to use.

I don't think it's a bad idea, with changes to costs to abilities, but again it would be something fitting of a "rookiemode" or as i like to call it vanilla ns. :p

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bonage

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ironhorse says

bonage says
Energy wise you will see little drop off on the way to combat if managed efficiently.

Flap energy is almost non existent as is.. Why not just remove it?

You need to keep flap energy, otherwise you could permanently stay in combat or perma spike. The idea in combat is that you are doing a lot of flapping to maintain speed whilst doing either evasion maneuvers or approaching a target. You want to avoid taking as much dmg as possible, so irregular flight maneuvers require more flapping to pull off and maintain some sort of speed. Removing that element of combat for lerks would definitely make them op. Also remember that if you remove movement engergy management, you're going to make adren useless as an upgrade.

ironhorse says

while also allowing better evasive capabilities because you can really jam the spacebar now and make sound (there's that small buff that was needed].

The flap sound isn't necessary if you've already spotted them or are in combat with them already. It's more so that you can hear them travelling around the map when noone on the team has vision of them. So yes an escaping lerk could be heard, but it's not useful information for a marine.

ironhorse says

If you want you could even slightly increase bite energy to account for the change and to ensure it doesn't tip the class into an overpowered area in combat.

You could do this, but I think movement energy management is a better mechanic to have - it's a harder mechanic to master and therefore the reward is greater. It's not an overly difficult mechanic as well. As mentioned earlier, perhaps these changes could be implemented in the vanilla version, but for comp mod I think the current version is fine.

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duster

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Exo's imo should have a lowered pres/tres cost and lowered research time, but also lowered effectiveness.

right now they are basically just a massive scythe for marines that are in the lead to finish the game with.

It's cute to have them this way since they've been bad for so long, but I think more changes would add more flavour.

for those that havn't tried out early exos in a game when leading with marines, the recent buffs are MASSIVE.

you can go 1/1, put two exos in the hive with a welder marine and have the other two marines in base and just finish the game the moment you get exos. Lerks cannot do anything against two duallies with a welder.

but when marines are behind exos are not even a thought and you'd never see them.

proposed changes

-lower trres cost of prototype lab to 20
-raise tres cost of jetpacks by 20
-lower research time on exos
-exos are now back to singlies, instead of instantly being doublies when researched
-successful hit with railgun slows attack and movement speed, and removes all energy.
-reduced pres cost on buying exo
-longer cooldown time on minigun.
-slightly increased movement speed.
-maybe disable alien structures they stand on
-increase base stats on exos, but lower their scaling with marine weapons/armor upgrades, so that they start with 0/1 regardless of arms lab but can only be up to 2/2. So getting armor 1 would give them the exo equivalent to 1.3, and getting weapons one would be their equivalent of .68 or so

This gives exos more of a mid game chasing/recon role. Right now you'd never see an exo do anything that isn't super safe, predictable and boring. I'd like to see an exo push a node solo when aliens are crushing a 2 man pressure team on the other side of the map, or getting into a pinching position since it moves faster than a marine, knowing that it could die but still being worth it, or things like that.

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RisingSun

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Location: United States of America
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The Commander res penalty needs to come back in some form. There is not enough for the alien comm to do to make getting out of the hive a trade off. It is now a no brainer to have the comm out and have your team jump in to drop things. You now have a 6th player at all time to bite res and at that important moment, a gorge to heal up the hive ridiculously fast without losing ANY combat effectiveness.

Comms need to Comm. 6v5 is ridiculous as it is, but the fact that it is not only rewarded but encouraged is asinine. This is becoming the new meta and further screwing up div 1 and below now. It is already easy to get a 1-1 all alien wins. It exacerbates things with the near constant 6v5.

If this change was to help the premier divs i think it should be reverted just based on that. We should not be balancing this dying game for 4 teams... the 24 others would like good games too. (I'm not saying balance only for those 24 either. Changes need to be made that get the desired result but doesnt screw over the other 24 or 4.)

one of two things would need to happen:

1. A comm either gains no res or very little through restrictions.
or
2. Make alien comm vital to the aliens so it is an actual trade off.

Can we at least agree that this change has not been tested enough and doesnt belong in Season 5. It is too close to lockdown time. Maybe next season?

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duster

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@risingsun

For the first few minutes of the game, the comm needs to be in the chair since cyst build rate has been increased and fast expansion is now a thing, as well as drifter micro. The gorge fielder/comm swap out strat isn't really too viable considering it demands you be a shift hive, lose 15 res on a fielder, and need to win early engagements so that marines can't decyst and make echoing useless.

Also, when the marines have only their base node and their natural, the comm is way more useful while in the chair, expanding for nodes and getting forward pve with some occasional drifter support.

Now, even before this change, alien comms would hop out of the chair to defend their res nodes in every game on every map anyway.

With all that considered the only real change is that when marines are ahead, have backres, and are decysting, then it is viable for the alien comm to just give up expanding and hop out to bite res. That's the only thing that really changes with this, and it's not that much.

I've specced a few ensl matches recently where the europian players have hopped out of the chair and six crushed, but even when they had success in the crush they where only on one node and natural cysts, when a five crush would've meant they could have had 3 nodes and pve up.

Also, at the lerk changes, it may be a big deal if biting in general wasn't awfully risky and spiking wasn't leagues more efficient and safer. Spiking and wasting magazines evading for other lifeforms to go in seems like the standard lerk play that keeps the games together, so if assassin lerking is really hurting new users it'd be okay to nerf it imo.

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ironhorse

element

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Iots says

In this case you could compare it to the fade, their major movement skill is tied to energy as well. If you would do this for lerk, you should do it for fade as well then. And you can imagine (i hope you can) how fades will become with blink being free to use.

But that comparison doesn't work because while the fade is all about energy management, that rarely occurs for the Lerk imo. This increase in flapping frequency won't change that, either, since flapping takes almost nothing.
I think this is fine, as well, the class doesn't need to manage energy until umbra is used - and when this occurs players are typically relegating themselves to dedicated Umbra dispensing machines anyways, so it's not like they end up having to juggle intense combat like you see at 2:30 into a round along with Umbra.

bonage says

You need to keep flap energy, otherwise you could permanently stay in combat or perma spike.

Permanently staying in an area is ill advised as that's just increased exposure and more chances of dying.. Think about it: When using the Lerk, how often is the length of exposure in a room determined by your remaining energy Vs. your remaining HP?
Being able to perma spike is easily addressable by increasing the energy usage of it, just like bite should be. This also solves the issue with adrenaline not having as much of an impact.

bonage says

So yes an escaping lerk could be heard, but it's not useful information for a marine.

It is if you're trying to pinch that escaping lerk ;)

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RisingSun

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duster says

@risingsun

For the first few minutes of the game, the comm needs to be in the chair since cyst build rate has been increased and fast expansion is now a thing, as well as drifter micro. The gorge fielder/comm swap out strat isn't really too viable considering it demands you be a shift hive, lose 15 res on a fielder, and need to win early engagements so that marines can't decyst and make echoing useless.

Also, when the marines have only their base node and their natural, the comm is way more useful while in the chair, expanding for nodes and getting forward pve with some occasional drifter support.

Now, even before this change, alien comms would hop out of the chair to defend their res nodes in every game on every map anyway.

With all that considered the only real change is that when marines are ahead, have backres, and are decysting, then it is viable for the alien comm to just give up expanding and hop out to bite res. That's the only thing that really changes with this, and it's not that much.

I've specced a few ensl matches recently where the europian players have hopped out of the chair and six crushed, but even when they had success in the crush they where only on one node, when a five crush would've meant they could have had 3 nodes and pve up.

@duster

Then you haven't witnessed the abuse i have on the NA side. One comm i know was out so much he got enough for lerk res.

There just isn't a need for someone to be in the comm chair in the beginning. You can play musical chairs and drop things that need dropping or researching. The start is just chambers and cysts and take so long to grow it allows for other activities outside the hive.

Just an FYI, there is a high level team abusing this and having a non comm start as the comm to give them an edge.

The meta change is real and needs to be stopped.

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duster

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ironhorse says

Permanently staying in an area is ill advised.

Staying in a single spot would be dumb, but the change itself would be a big buff to spiking. If you main lerk you'll find yourself too lit to bite but trying to finish off a marine all the time. Maybe you could add it in to balance our nerfing assasin lerks, but it'd be an overall buff to lerks and probably not something that should be in season 5.

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RisingSun

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duster says

ironhorse says

Permanently staying in an area is ill advised.

Staying in a single spot would be dumb, but the change itself would be a big buff to spiking. If you main lerk you'll find yourself too lit to bite but trying to finish off a marine all the time. Maybe you could add it in to balance our nerfing assasin lerks, but it'd be an overall buff to lerks and probably not something that should be in season 5.

Though the lerk has received two decent nerfs and with adjustments to energy consumption for other abilities it could work.

It would make adren VERY viable and iron has said, flapping energy cost is negligible anyway.

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duster

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RisingSun says

@duster

Then you haven't witnessed the abuse i have on the NA side. One comm i know was out so much he got enough for lerk res.

You mean simba with the gorge/shift hive swap strat? That means he had to get an additional 15 res, and it means the person on their team who started with 15 res didn't end up getting a lifeform beyond gorge. The teams first lerk comes out faster but the second lerk comes out much slower. You need to take advantage of this and go double ip/ pressure and decyst.

There are plenty of other nasty ways a div 1 team will throw you around if you don't win early game engagements. Shift hive is currently the worst hive but it is a pres snowball hive, so it is imperative that you win early game against it.

Snowballing/lack of comebacks is a bit rampant with good teams but it's not something that will be fixed before season 5

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RisingSun

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duster says

RisingSun says

@duster

Then you haven't witnessed the abuse i have on the NA side. One comm i know was out so much he got enough for lerk res.

You mean simba with the gorge/shift hive swap strat? That means he had to get an additional 15 res, and it means the person on their team who started with 15 res didn't end up getting a lifeform beyond gorge. The teams first lerk comes out faster but the second lerk comes out much slower. You need to take advantage of this and go double ip/ pressure and decyst.

There are plenty of other nasty ways a div 1 team will throw you around if you don't win early game engagements.

I dont actually. There is a higher team doing the abusing.

From my experience in playing Div 1 teams, the window for marines to capitalize on alien lifeform deaths and mistakes is already so small, you add a 6th player and it makes it nearly impossible.

Bottom line... It is possible to have a 6th player on the field for 80-90% of the match. The game is not balanced for this and it makes it unfair. Period. Premier might need this buff due to all the marine wins, but it unbalances the lower divs further.

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rantology

The Boys

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I think the commander p-res changes have a bit less to do with comms being more consistently out of the hive, than the mucous nerf did. That was really the only reason to stay in the hive the majority of the time.

Even if we were to bring back commanding p-res penalties, I don't think this will solve the issue of the commander fielding for a great majority of the time. It's just the way the alien comm has always worked.. because the aliens will never have commander micro worthy of staying in the hive 100% (or even the majority) of the time akin to Marine commander and it's role.

I don't think this issue is exclusive to lower divisions, either (and we have never balanced specifically for any one division). Premier teams are also heavily using alien field comms. But again, I think this is because of the lack of useful micro on the alien comm, and less about the musical commander. It is weighing a fun factor, if you will, for the alien comm and the available strategies. The res penalty was a very harsh and artificial way to deal with a problem that will likely never be able to be addressed... and even so it did not fully address the issue, you still saw comms able to field for much of the time if they managed things correctly.

If there was a way to more easily judge the interest in keeping the penalty VS leaving it the way it is now, that would also be helpful. It's hard to know how widespread your sentiment is, Rising..

As always the feedback is appreciated & I'd love to know how many people share your views. So keep posting & we will be keeping a close eye.

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RisingSun

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rantology says

I think the commander p-res changes have a bit less to do with comms being more consistently out of the hive, than the mucous nerf did. That was really the only reason to stay in the hive the majority of the time.

Even if we were to bring back commanding p-res penalties, I don't think this will solve the issue of the commander fielding for a great majority of the time. It's just the way the alien comm has always worked.. because the aliens will never have commander micro worthy of staying in the hive 100% (or even the majority) of the time akin to Marine commander and it's role.

I don't think this issue is exclusive to lower divisions, either (and we have never balanced specifically for any one division). Premier teams are also heavily using alien field comms. But again, I think this is because of the lack of useful micro on the alien comm, and less about the musical commander. It is weighing a fun factor, if you will, for the alien comm and the available strategies. The res penalty was a very harsh and artificial way to deal with a problem that will likely never be able to be addressed... and even so it did not fully address the issue, you still saw comms able to field for much of the time if they managed things correctly.

If there was a way to more easily judge the interest in keeping the penalty VS leaving it the way it is now, that would also be helpful. It's hard to know how widespread your sentiment is, Rising..

As always the feedback is appreciated & I'd love to know how many people share your views. So keep posting & we will be keeping a close eye.

I think you will agree though that the res penatly kept the trade offs better in line. If a comm over extended it wasnt feasible for someone to jump in and pick up the slack. It wasnt so much keeping the comm in, it was keeping everyone else out.

On another note: If you and others enjoy the comm out meta, then why not make the comm gather 0 res. You have your field player (which i still think is OP, but at least it is only a skulk) without completely unbalancing the rest of the game.

But as i said, lack of feedback should be enough to remove it for this season and put it on the "to-do list for the mid season next year. It wasnt fixing anything and if you say it adds the fun factor for 1 player, i say it removes more fun than it adds for 6 others. They chose to comm, not field. I dont shed a tear for the bored comm =)

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Simba

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Teams played with the khammander out before the change, as rantology stated. Virsoul was doing it before it was cool. It's not become more of the accepted meta strategy. I cannot speak entirely for other khammanders, but personally I am only out of the chair in the early game. It is far more advantageous for me to full time khamm in the mid-late game. I have to babysit my life forms and generate infestation and lame to protect and support them. This becomes full-time when the fades are out. Bone walls, mucous bombs, drifter support, expanding in open lanes constantly...

It's a huge part of that makes me effective in the chair. If i'm out of the chair, life forms survivability goes down as crags, bone walls, and drifter support isn't there to get them out of a jam. Pres income for life forms is also reduced because I'm not expanding and capping at my normal rate. What do I gain for this? I can parasite and bite a res node?

Gorging is the only life form I every get to see. I am never out of the chair long enough to lerk, and if a khamm you were against was, I am not sure how effective you were to capitalize on this khamm never being in the chair... Was it a LONG game?

I DID bring it up as a point that you could potentially see lerk khamm's with this change, but it wasn't seen as a very big problem or even possibility.

I don't even know if being a lerk khamm would be all that effective... Perhaps we haven't seen lerk khamm enough to understand the meta of it and potentially how to counter it.

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duster

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Simba says

I cannot speak entirely for other khammanders, but personally I am only out of the chair in the early game. It is far more advantageous for me to full time khamm in the mid-late game.

I guess this changes depending on your opening splits and hwo the other team is doing. If you crush hub/crossroads/nano I find it's better to stay in the hive early to rapid expand and get up pve, then maybe hop out to pressure their nodes. If you crush one of their naturals and then hop naturals while leaving the crush team alive that becomes inverted.

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Feathermonster

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RisingSun says

They chose to comm, not field. I dont shed a tear for the bored comm =)

K, you go com tonight, I choose to field and be the flash lerk. :D

I'm personally fine with the ability to have com gorges and stuff. Early game ones (aka start out of the hive) are pretty risky because of how much you could be set back if it goes wrong but could be great if you don't get rekt, late game ones aren't as ridiculous because they'd probably be out trying to bite ankles as a skulk if you're close enough for the gorge to come bile or whatever and as mentioned, it means no bonewalls for escaping lifeforms or to split 'rines. I mean, it's not like back when you could drop eggs, I'm pretty sure I remember Golden dropping himself lerk eggs when he commed in pugs. At least the lifeforms mean the com wasn't in doing stuff for that period of time. Maybe some of the distaste for it among my teammates is just because we as a team haven't quite figured out the best way to work with/against it or something, so will be interesting to see how that changes. But then again, it could just be one of those things where we're just doomed to disagree like with hallucination ragdolls -- I'm still a little annoyed they got removed, especially with NS2+'s quick dissolve option now -- in which case, meh, whatever. I'd rather play the damn game than argue about it.

Sure, the best option would be to have alien com be worth having all through the game as a roughly even trade for having a com-gorge or whatnot, but trying to get that all to balance right is probably pretty hard and I'm not gonna pretend to even throw numbers around to try. But wasn't the point of compmod to help make sure that there were multiple different tactics available? Some of the things that I know Rising and Fisk have suggested in our mumble would probably destroy multiple strats that aren't anywhere near as important as a com-gorge (like a com starting out of the chair on 'rines to buy their own mines). Focusing more on trying to make alien com something you'd want in most engagements (regardless of if it's the starting com or a musical chairs game) rather than adding restrictions is the way to go in that case. Have it so the com gets their gorge to take to battle but the lerk who died now has to wrangle drifters or something to make up for the lifeform loss, IDK. Toss some ideas around for that instead if you're so concerned about com-gorges, guys.

But then again, what do I know. I'm just some scrub com, so obviously this all benefits me the way it is now. Even if fun for one person out of twelve is totally unimportant, so I hear. ;)

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Iots

el'pheer

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Feathermonster says

Maybe some of the distaste for it among my teammates is just because we as a team haven't quite figured out the best way to work with/against it or something,

This, i'd really want to see this with my own eyes and trust you guys, sorry Rising but you're a scrub!

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RisingSun

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Iots says

Feathermonster says
Maybe some of the distaste for it among my teammates is just because we as a team haven't quite figured out the best way to work with/against it or something,

This, i'd really want to see this with my own eyes and trust you guys, sorry Rising but you're a scrub!

"Failed heart"

Takes one to know one ;) but what do you care? You aren't on a team that is competing this season. =p

And BTW, just because teams haven't adapted to it yet doesn't mean it's a good idea. You all have stated above that the alien comm is lacking. If that isn't incentive enough you then reward the player with res to do what you don't want them to do.

Comms need to comm, not field. Make alien comm more vital, don't make the situation worse by having the comm benefit by not doing his job. This statement has nothing to do with my god damn skill as a player. I'm sick of that attitude. Anyone can see it is a flawed mechanic. I would prefer the person in the comm chair is unable to log out at all. PERIOD. I can't stop being a lerk mid game because I'm bored without severe concequences. I have to make due and maximize my lifeform.

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Seb

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RisingSun says

Iots says

Feathermonster says
Maybe some of the distaste for it among my teammates is just because we as a team haven't quite figured out the best way to work with/against it or something,

This, i'd really want to see this with my own eyes and trust you guys, sorry Rising but you're a scrub!

"Failed heart"

Takes one to know one ;) but what do you care? You aren't on a team that is competing this season. =p

And BTW, just because teams haven't adapted to it yet doesn't mean it's a good idea. You all have stated above that the alien comm is lacking. If that isn't incentive enough you then reward the player with res to do what you don't want them to do.

Comms need to comm, not field. Make alien comm more vital, don't make the situation worse by having the comm benefit by not doing his job. This statement has nothing to do with my god damn skill as a player. I'm sick of that attitude. Anyone can see it is a flawed mechanic. I would prefer the person in the comm chair is unable to log out at all. PEROID. I can't stop being a lerk mid game because I'm bored without severe concequences. I have to make due and maximize my lifeform.

The alien comm is already vital, and the alien tres has definitely been tested enough in v3. Its been in since the start of v3 which came out quite a while ago.

I actually really like this in v3 as apposed to v2 or vanilla or whatever. I think it actually gives the aliens a lot more flexibility in terms of what they want to do with their game plan. You think that there is only 1 way that is good, and it is OP. I seriously disagree with that assessment. There are so many ways you can play as a team now, its the most fun aliens has been since forever ago.

I agree with Simba. The tradeoff is too great to justify getting out of the hive any longer than I have to as a gorge or a skulk. My team is experimenting with going shift hive and using the gorge comm and shift echo strategy which requires me to be in the hive almost 24/7. Not only this but bone wall and enzyme on the drifter are 2 really really powerful abilities in certain circumstances. If I'm not in the hive, the marines have the advantage or maybe my team can't capitalise on a situation that they otherwise could have, had I been in the hive.

Also, the only reason that you have given that its a bad change is that you don't like it. It shouldn't affect your marine game THAT much. If you are employing proper lane blocking 1 extra skulk isn't a big deal. If they pack as a group of 6, were you going to kill 5 skulks anyways? If they get a comm gorge (which can only happen if someone sacrifices their 15 start pres or the comm jumps out every few seconds to gather res, by that time its 5-6 minutes in the game) is that really affecting the outcome of the game? A fielding member can already go gorge! Why does the comm gorge affect the outcome of the game SO much that you think this change should be reverted?

The point is, the compmods purpose is to change the game in areas where it is stale and boring, and alien strategies is one of those areas. The compmod is going to change certain meta's but that's ok by me and the vast majority of players. (btw, you should try out fast hmgs, that shit is ridiculous man)

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NotDragon

Extra-Staff: NSL Mod (Creator) Coder
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A lifeform has an active role in the game always, the alien commander will NEVER have that kind of role, unless aliens are balanced to depend on a comm like marines. From the games that I watched (which was very few), my suggestion is that its simply a change of pace, and some teams may be quicker to adapt than others. We shouldn't be actively hamstringing the alien commander into babysitting the hive even if it massively impacted balance, we should allow all players to enjoy the game equally. Its possible we can look at making it so the initial commander never gets pRes, but I dont think that impact of the alien commander getting pRes is super critical ATM.

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Fiskbit

Over.Extension

Posts: 16
Location: United States of America
Joined: 30 August 2013

I find the commander pres change to be the biggest change to game balance of any in the mod and I really dislike the impact it has. When playing with commanders who take advantage of it, the commander role feels like unwanted baggage, with players having to mist themselves or constantly hop in to the hive to cyst, buy eggs, or place structures. It's slow and awkward, and abilities like bone wall and drifter support happen way less. The role becomes much less important because it allows the commander to be more effective on the field, making it feel like legacy cruft rather than a proper feature of the game (and we definitely have enough crufty features in the game already).

Then there's the frustration of playing against it, where commanders are reliably getting a gorge and using that to do things like build hives so quickly that marines don't get a chance to respond, or run into battle with higher lifeforms to provide healing support that previously required the absence of another type of lifeform. A solo marine running into a hive room to clear upgrades has a way harder time against a commander gorge, who can take a lot of bullets, heal structures, and just generally make that marine completely ineffective with very little risk of actually dying. And this is all assuming the commander chose to spend his res on a gorge. Lerk commanders are not just possible, but totally feasible; in the finals for the draft tournament, Simba reached lerk res before the onos saver could afford an onos and before the second hive had even been dropped. He chose to gorge to build the hive super fast, but he had the option to go lerk, something that supporters of this change have said is unlikely, at best. Whether the change was made to make commanders have more fun or not, it has a very real impact on balance that many seem to be ignoring, helping the side that looks to be already winning most of the games in lower divisions (and let's be honest: this doesn't help marines in the slightest).

Finally, the change fundamentally doesn't make much sense. Whether a commander is in the hive is a decision to be made based on what's best for their team, so further incentive against commanding doesn't really add a compelling new element; it just makes it so commanders have to be fielding more in order to satisfy those commanders who don't like the role they have on their team. I can't think of other changes that have been made to make a clearly sub-optimal play style become necessary, and it is forcing commanders into a completely different type of play (heavier FPS rather than mostly RTS) for them to be effective. If the problem is that the alien commander is less engaging and important than the marine commander, then the focus of the discussion and changes should be on improving that role. Discussion should identify what the alien role lacks compared to the marine one and what changes can be made to bring it up to par. I've got plenty of thoughts on this, and I'm sure others do, too. As it is, we're arguing about a change that was contentious before it went in and remains so, and there are other ways to fix this problem. In the short term, I'd love to see the commander simply never get res, but whatever the case, I hope the current change gets reverted, because regardless of what side I'm on or what team I'm playing for, it really hurts my enjoyment of the game.

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Seb

Posts: 95
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 23 April 2013

What? Dude, you JUST had 2 commanders point out to you that it is in most situations BETTER to be in the hive than out yet you still believe that it creates an imbalance. I do agree about having a lerk comm however, I don't think the commander should ever get the option to go lerk/fade/onos, but I think if the alien team has enough res flow for the comm to go lerk within a certain period of time (you didn't specify) then there are other issues the marine team should be worrying about besides an extra lerk.

When playing with commanders who take advantage of it, the commander role feels like unwanted baggage, with players having to mist themselves or constantly hop in to the hive to cyst, buy eggs, or place structures. It's slow and awkward, and abilities like bone wall and drifter support happen way less.

But you see, this is totally optional. You don't HAVE to play musical commanders. It's up to the team and how they want to play that game. If you don't like having to jump in the hive once every game to mist yourself, make sure you let your comm know when you are going fade and when you want a mist - in advance. Or maybe have them stay in the hive the whole game? Despite what you may think, you aren't at a disadvantage having the comm in the hive vs not having him in the hive IMO.

Its also pretty funny that you bitch about it being OP when on Marines but then bitch about having the OP commander able to skulk/gorge out of the hive when you are on Aliens. Everyone has the same access to all the same tech and strats you do.

A solo marine running into a hive room to clear upgrades has a way harder time against a commander gorge, who can take a lot of bullets, heal structures, and just generally make that marine completely ineffective with very little risk of actually dying.

This is a pretty big strawman argument. Running solo into a hive is ALREADY a risky move gorge or no gorge. You still have a skulk in the hive regardless. In fact, running solo into a hive could possibly be made EASIER by the comm being out of the hive and playing on the field! If all aliens are alive, who is going to respond to that marine killing upgrades? The arguments that you are coming up with seem like you are having trouble playing the game as a team and therefore trying to put blame on a certain element.

About your last point, read my last post again, Alien comm has some really really really helpful abilities already, its not about improving the role, although yes one could argue that it needs some improvements and tweaks, no suggestions have been brought forward. I think that the way it is right now is good, and I doubt its going to change. I mean you and RisingSun are the only people I have seen complain about this and I'm pretty sure you are on the same team?

I wonder why 2 people on the same team would be upset about a teamwork heavy game element.... Hmmmm....

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RisingSun

Posts: 57
Location: United States of America
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Seb says

What? Dude, you JUST had 2 commanders point out to you that it is in most situations BETTER to be in the hive than out yet you still believe that it creates an imbalance. I do agree about having a lerk comm however, I don't think the commander should ever get the option to go lerk/fade/onos, but I think if the alien team has enough res flow for the comm to go lerk within a certain period of time (you didn't specify) then there are other issues the marine team should be worrying about besides an extra lerk.

When playing with commanders who take advantage of it, the commander role feels like unwanted baggage, with players having to mist themselves or constantly hop in to the hive to cyst, buy eggs, or place structures. It's slow and awkward, and abilities like bone wall and drifter support happen way less.

But you see, this is totally optional. You don't HAVE to play musical commanders. It's up to the team and how they want to play that game. If you don't like having to jump in the hive once every game to mist yourself, make sure you let your comm know when you are going fade and when you want a mist - in advance. Or maybe have them stay in the hive the whole game? Despite what you may think, you aren't at a disadvantage having the comm in the hive vs not having him in the hive IMO.

Its also pretty funny that you bitch about it being OP when on Marines but then bitch about having the OP commander able to skulk/gorge out of the hive when you are on Aliens. Everyone has the same access to all the same tech and strats you do.

A solo marine running into a hive room to clear upgrades has a way harder time against a commander gorge, who can take a lot of bullets, heal structures, and just generally make that marine completely ineffective with very little risk of actually dying.

This is a pretty big strawman argument. Running solo into a hive is ALREADY a risky move gorge or no gorge. You still have a skulk in the hive regardless. In fact, running solo into a hive could possibly be made EASIER by the comm being out of the hive and playing on the field! If all aliens are alive, who is going to respond to that marine killing upgrades? The arguments that you are coming up with seem like you are having trouble playing the game as a team and therefore trying to put blame on a certain element.

About your last point, read my last post again, Alien comm has some really really really helpful abilities already, its not about improving the role, although yes one could argue that it needs some improvements and tweaks, no suggestions have been brought forward. I think that the way it is right now is good, and I doubt its going to change. I mean you and RisingSun are the only people I have seen complain about this and I'm pretty sure you are on the same team?

I wonder why 2 people on the same team would be upset about a teamwork heavy game element.... Hmmmm....

Honestly my posts were mainly directed at Dragon and the others in the comp mod team. You have a very naive opinion and it shows to the people who know what they are talking about. Fisk and I are on the same team but so is FeatherMonster, one of those comms you mentioned...

We have scrimmed a lot in the past couple months and have been playing through every change. I think we have a pretty good handle on things. The best argument made against what we are saying is... Comm is boring and it's FUN to have them out. If the comp mod team is just trying to freshen things up i wish the would do it in another way.

responding to part of your post to show what i mean by naive "You don't HAVE to play musical commanders.". Yes, Seb, you do. If you dont conform to the new commander out of the hive meta you lose out on an extra player on the field. 6v5 where you can field 2 lerks, 2 fades, 1 onos, AND a gorge. Not to mention heal up your own hive as commander while everyone else pressures. Something that used to require you to give up a needed front line soldier. You also now have a free bile bomb machine for those pesky arcs without losing any of your vital lifeforms.

It needs to be reverted. I really like the idea of comms gaining no res. If you want to skulk around? go ahead, But leave the lifeforms to your team. The abuse tactic of having someone who is not a comm start in the hive taking the 0 res penalty, then having your comm gorge and echo out all your harvesters is horribly unbalanced. You could mass expand with a drifter one way and send out fully grown harvesters the other.

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Seb

Posts: 95
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 23 April 2013

RisingSun says

but so is FeatherMonster, one of those comms you mentioned...

Sorry, then it's 3 commanders in this thread.

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Balance Mod - Third Iteration

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