Seriously? I bet there'll be complaints AGAIN about the density of the number of games in 1 weekend.

It's like you want to have a shit tonne of cups instead of having fun, competitive games.

Spread these games out or people will forfeit cause they can't play on Saturday, e.g. Radical vs snails quarter finals. And the stress (and boredom) of game after game after game on 1 or 2 days.

Since you ask so sincerely, I have changed it to two weekends instead of one. The group games can be played from the 9th to the 18th. That's a bit over one week. The finals for are still set times to ensure primetime streams.

This should be a good change at least.

Because its easier to dedicate two weekends instead of one?

That was my initial thinking Skuggan. I figured I would try this format instead. That way I can compare the results and see if this format really causes less forfeits or not. My prediction that it will make little to no difference in forfeit percentage.

Or it could be possible to reschedule across 2 whole weeks.

Nope, the current timeframe is the final one. It's 5 games across 9 days. It should be very doable and not too much pressure for the participants.

Yes, 5 games in 9 days in a inactive competitive scene should be fine. Great work guys.
A dynamic ladder next year please (just a fun league for regular matches to keep the scene alive??)

Yeah go go go Scurvy !!!

@skyice Alot of competetive teams are inactive during the summer due to having people away on holidays, it has always been like that. That's why we keep the seasons out of the holiday period and hold cups instead, which can also easily be played by mix teams.

A ladder wouldn't bring nearly as much activity as a cup does, it's uncomparable. A ladder also wouldn't keep anything alive, that's wishful thinking. If teams are active, they play practice matches, if there are no official matches. The "lack" of a ladder is not the reason why the scene isn't very active at the moment. It's the lack of available players, due to holidays, people losing interest in playing and teams naturally disbanding after a season. Many to reappear or make new teams later on.

Point is, the current inactivity we're experiencing is normal. It's just summer.

Normal? What are you comparing it with? The competitive scene of a half life 1 mod that was 10 years old? I feel that the ENSL needs to do more to have greater integration with public players. Season 3 is a month a way and we need a massive influx of low level teams to keep this game going as long as ns1. But that is another issue (which can be solved by UWE advertising the ensl in game...) Yes people dont play as much in the summer, but i can count for 20 or 30 players that ARE still playing games but AREN'T playing NS2 competitive. Gathers are dead over the summer but people still want to play 6v6 NS2 games. The answer? a mother trucking ladder my friend. It will take the need out of finding PCW's which is a massive ball ache for low div 2/3 teams who can only find div 1/high 2 teams to play. We can have 2 game nights a week as standard (which can be changed +/- 3 days to suite commitment issues. Fuck, even 1 would do) And it will keep the scene trotting along in the summer. Have you seen how active public is? get a beginers league advertised by uwe and if 10% sign up, you got 10 new div 3/4 teams. Everyone i know thinks this is a good idea apart from swalk and fana.
And before anyone says it; yes i know the ensl admins work for free but im sure many people will jump to take their place. The summer ensl scene has been a joke. "If teams are active, they play practice matches, if there are no official matches" There is nothing keeping the low level teams active you fool! It needs to be scheduled, leaving it to team captains to organise pcws in-between weeks of no competitions is regressive and doesnt benefit anyone. I feel sorry for the poor americans!

And who wants to play in a cup to win 1, draw a few and then get owned by a div 1 team live on twitch. You need to switch your focus into making new more casual low level teams happy, not your self and your 1000+ game hour buddys.

Just by saying X wont work because Y is in place doesn't make it true. My belief is that when the decision was made to take the league format down for 2-3 months that when you open it up again the community will be largely dead. The opinion of the admins appears that making a ladder wouldn't be worth the time investment. Fact of the matter is that we will never know because we haven't tried it.

But what about the future of the competitive scene?

A ladder would assist in keeping the community going much longer IMO because like it or lump it:
* its largely the only competitive play there would be over the last 2 months
* would give another option to 1 competitive game a week.
* would give the chance for new pop up teams to play competitively rather that waiting to join league etc

In my opinion is a lot of the admins during the holiday period have been away or not really active in the game anymore. This isn't a criticism, it's just the way it seems to be. But more admins should be appointed - why not make a ladder admin - if he can't get it going then fine. From my understanding there is some form of ladder system already in place on the website - but perhaps not completely functional to the ideal.

If you need someone to code a new ladder, update the site, assist in something then ask people - I myself would be willing to fund some of the coding required for this - but there is little or no feedback from what seems to be a very dictatorial administration.

@skyice Yes, normal. The competetive NS1 scene is for the most part the same game and has the same competetive playerbase size and even many of the exact same players. It is comparable, implying that you can't compare the competetive NS1 scene and the competetive NS2 scene is kind of ignorant to say the least.
It's true that the gathers are really slow during the summer, but a ladder would not be any different from that. Most likely just even more inactive than the gathers, because you actually need two entire teams to play a ladder match, while you can sign up for the gathers by yourself.
Surely we would like to help new teams get into NSL. Heck, every time I see some people with a tag on public I haven't seen before, I ask them about NSL. Most of them know about it, but unfortunately most of those kind of teams don't want to play competetively.
A ladder also wouldn't bring any more games at your level if you can not get any pcws at your level. In the end it would be the same teams that are playing both pcws and ladder.
You might think we can get UWE to do what we want, when we want it. That is not the case, it's a delicate dance and they don't always have time to dance when it's daytime here in europe.
My focus have always been to have the league be open to any team from anywhere in the world, at any skill level. I do not prioritize anyone over others, that's your imagination running wild.

@Bonkers Ladders were tried in NS1. As I've said many times, ladders in smaller games are extremely inactive and just dies off. It will just make it even more apparent how low the activity is at this time of year.
Surely ladders would give a secondary choice to the league, but if it's not really going to be used, what is the point?
My prediction is still that at the end of August, more teams will come back, we will probably see new teams popping up. I've been told this happened every year during the NS1 days. If contests came too close to the holiday period, they would be troublesome to many teams. And I'm pretty sure there are some unplayed finals and stuff that came too close to the summer holiday period, which resulted in having the long summer break from the seasons. We decided to fill this period with cups of all kinds(Nations Cup, Balance Mod Cup, European Open and the Summer Cup), as they are easier to attend than a season due to the massive timeframe differences. I'm sure we could get someone willing to be ladder admin, but there won't really be any need for one, even if we started a ladder. It would be a dead ladder anyway. Like most other ladders for smaller games, including NS1. They quickly die off, or never really get going. Ladders really only work in games with HUGE playerbases. NS2 is not one of those games.

All I'm reading is assumption based on 1 effort to get a ladder going previously on a different game with what sounds like a ladder system that didn't function properly.

On the flip side I'm reading a lot of people/teams that do want to play it.

Would you consider running a poll to ask people if they would or wouldn't be interested in one?

If the only sticking point is if it would/wouldn't be used why don't we ask people?

It's not based on one effort, it's based on many ladders for smaller games I've had interest in during the years. The NS1 reference is just to mention that it has been tried in this community too.
Ladders sound very appealing on paper, but in practice they are mostly inactive in smaller games like NS1, NS2 etc.

...

@skyice Yes, normal. The competetive NS1 scene is for the most part the same game and has the same competetive playerbase size and even many of the exact same players.

You're right about it being a very similar game and having many of the same players (it's actually scary how high the average player age on ensl is -- not a good sign for the future), but the competitive playerbase in ns2 is actually significantly smaller than ns1 (the first ~4 years of ns1).

All I'm reading is assumption based on 1 effort to get a ladder going previously on a different game with what sounds like a ladder system that didn't function properly.

NS1 had many attempts at ladders over the years. Non-exhaustive list: Multiple clanbase ladders, two ensl ladders, esl ladder and several regional ladders. They all failed after a short initial period of activity; a few lasted as long as six months before they were ghost towns, most failed within the first month.

I would also like to point out that even CS 1.6 which was largely the most popular fps of its time even had really inactive summers.
Sure you could some games going but the diversity of teams you played was very small and it would take a lot more effort to get a game during the summer.

So "then the groups will be based on level" how are u going to decide what level the teams are? Is every team that has never played in a season before automatically div 3 and gets a spot in the low level groups?

@Fana, considering ns2 has been ranked as the 15th best shooter of all time and has received mostly out-standing reviews globally, we need to pressure the admins to work harder to bring new teams in at a rookie skill level. As i recall in NS1, there was a big downer in the public community scene as soon as September hit because everyone went back to school. To have a completely closed door policy to new teams during summer is unacceptable. A ladder is a extremely open description of a type of competition and can have many variations - so you need to stop saying it doesn't work.
To me it appeals as a rookie friendly option, that opens the competitive door to many players before, during and after ensl seasons. Regardless of what you think of a ladder system, something needs to be done to please lower skilled players and improve the life span of ns2. I just feel that we need a open discussion with people who are willing to put in the effort and help the ns2 competitive scene live on for years to come. And that starts with bringing in new teams (which obviously will be lower skilled level) and we need the right environment to support that. An extremely competitive ENSL season and cup routine just isn't enough.

smaragor no, they have a seeding system. They have to play a few teams and report back to say how they got on. My clan collapsed because we were put in div 2 and begged swalk to put us in div 3 and he just bluntly wouldn't listen. Although its now apparent that its in the rules to listen and assign a division using hard line stats (match scores). I offered him the ns2 stats of 25 games and he just fobbed me off.
We went on to lose almost every game.

@Smaragor As of now there are only 7 european teams signed up, so that would just be a single group. In case I need to split up the groups, the seeding system will be used. And since this is a cup and not the season, the unseeded teams will be manually seeded.

@Fana, considering ns2 has been ranked

Rankings? Reviews? LOL!

A ladder is a extremely open description of a type of competition and can have many variations - so you need to stop saying it doesn't work.

I don't need to do anything. If you prefer illusions and fantasies to past experience, that's your problem.

We went on to lose almost every game.

We can't all be winners.

ladder isnt working if u cant find a pcw the whole day. its mostly playing the same team over and over and over again. If that team isnt online on that day u dont play at all. Yeah a ladder system rly would work with playing the same one or two teams over and over again.

We got less and less active teams in ns2. and for the high competetive scene (div1) there are less teams then in beta ns2 atm which are a worth playing

@Smaragor As of now there are only 7 european teams signed up, so that would just be a single group. In case I need to split up the groups, the seeding system will be used. And since this is a cup and not the season, the unseeded teams will be manually seeded.

This is going to sound strange coming from me, but here it is: Considering how few teams are signed up, my suggestion would be to ignore locational considerations and instead just skill seed the groups. High ping play is annoying, but it's preferable to having half the teams in a group get stomped in every game.

that might be a bit offtopic but:

the benefit sideffect of a ladder might be that new teams have an plattform to contact other teams for pcws.

cause when a rookie team joins ensl they have an hard time finding an enemy if they have to reasrch on the ensl website for hours to figure out which are the active persons to add in steam that can schedule games for there teams.

(the irc channel is not working at all and doing all with steam apprently is not rly working asswell)
(btw give every team leader admin acess to do steam group anncments on the steam scrim finder group)

on the case of introducing new teams there should be something done to make it easier for em maybe that attracts more teams asswell ;)

This is going to sound strange coming from me, but here it is: Considering how few teams are signed up, my suggestion would be to ignore locational considerations and instead just skill seed the groups. High ping play is annoying, but it's preferable to having half the teams in a group get stomped in every game.

Will keep this in mind and make a decision at monday when the signups are closed.

<*Snip* comment about seeding that has been addressed>

What I do not understand and what I would like to hear articulated is, why do you not just try a ladder? If it fails, the idea is done and it would have no real impact in comparison to a failed league/tournament. If you need help then ask and I think people will help, or at least have a better understanding as to why you cant just "set the ladder switch to on". Also, personally at this stage in the competitive scene, a ladder that ran for "only" 6 months I would consider a resounding success.

I have played ladders in games smaller than NS2, we played matches, they worked, I do not really understand what more you want. Everything dies eventually. Even if it only lasted a month it would already be better than nothing, and also probably better than the summer cups have been for most low/mid tier teams.

The very least you could do is make a "Ladder sign ups" contest to gauge interest.

I agree, i think Euro and NA scene should definitely be mixed. There just isn't enough teams to have an NA and EU scene. Do what CAL did initially. Have 2 divisions, first division has the already known top teams + promising others, and the second division has the rest. If certain teams in the lower division are kicking mucho ass at the end of the season (or sooner if its just complete stomp) bring them up to the higher division.

Wow its brilliant that the amazing Fana can join in on a discussion maturely. I guess ill come down to your level mate-
"Rankings? Reviews? LOL!" yes, ranked 15 in pc gamer magazine and yes, reviews, you heard of them? What you fail to comprehend from my points Fana, is that this is massive publicity. Next year wont have nearly the same amount of new players looking into this game. We need a noob friendly system. All these comments show is that the ensl is ran like a fucking dictatorship. If youve got nothing to input other that quoting and lolling then just keep your mouth shut.

Well that went well.

Nice skyice. Really nice. Best comment EU!

Fana is one of this top guys that I can say: Yes we need more players in NS of this sort.

(That happend not often for me saying that about some top players. :P)

Thanks for this stupid rage!

psico we were trying to have a real debate with valid points and fana comes in quoting and lolling. Most low skill level players arnt happy with the current format. Its clear that they dont intend on addressing the issue and this makes me mad. Fuck me right?

@airos "ladder isnt working if u cant find a pcw the whole day. its mostly playing the same team over and over and over again. If that team isnt online on that day u dont play at all. Yeah a ladder system rly would work with playing the same one or two teams over and over again.
We got less and less active teams in ns2. and for the high competetive scene (div1) there are less teams then in beta ns2 atm which are a worth playing"

The current ensl season set up isnt doing anything to bring in new low level teams. Something needs to happen. We need more innovation and ideas. Not just a blunt "no, doesnt work because we know it doesnt because we know"

We could have gather nights, noob nights (1 high skilled player leading 5 rookies against another team of the same) Some form of newcomers ladder. Or we could just sit back, do nothing and wait for a new season with even less teams then season 2. The ensl is the place for this to happen as it is already promoted by UWE, yet no one wants to even try.

J'aime manger des escargot cuits dans du beurre a l'ail.

J'aime manger français cuit au beurre d'escargots

I think I might be gay

skyice, you're allowed to criticize the decisions that the NSL and its admins have made. We are always open to suggestions and take the considerations of the players very seriously. In the past, we've held up a season and used a different format because players wanted it. We do draw the line at buffoonery and dickishness.

Keep this civil and respectful or, as your dictator, I will shut this discussion down and start laying down the ban hammer. Consider this your first and final warning.

Don't be a dick - Führer Zefram

In fairness Zef I think he edited it because he knew he went too far? IMO such warnings could be made in private.

Absolutely right, Bonkers.

Nice psico. Really nice. Best comment EU!

this is a discussion not a competition... skill has nothing to do with it

Thanks for making an out of place comment and making others rage!

AAAHhh i see ppl are still discussing weird stuff in the comments where it totally does not belong XD !

I am just glad ENSL has some Drama .. keep it going GUYS ! XD !

Oh and skyice ... it is easy to disregard Reviews and Rankings in a game like NS .. cause ppl will try it for 10 mins and not understand SHIT and quit ... NS can only live from Players brining in NEW PPL and showing them the metaphorical Ropes!

Also: HAIL ZEFRAM .. always a solid thing to call yourself Führer .. once again displaying your LEadership XDD !

Greets and much Love EisTee!

"NS can only live from Players brining in NEW PPL and showing them the metaphorical Ropes!"
Exactly why i feel we need to do more to help that process.

Allons enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire est arrivé

Tbh, rankings in some gaming magazines means shit at all. You need actually top-level competitive players who have experience to tell what is good what is not.

Here's a decent list of TOP 10 shooters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC95Iz8Gtbc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALd0ILisKvI&list=PL90229471516D05ED

Smaragor when did i say something about the skill and when did i start the rage. But thanks now i know much more from oF ;)

jiriki your missing the point. Its still publicity/advertising.

Psico:

Nice skyice. Really nice. Best comment EU!

Fana is one of this top guys that I can say: Yes we need more players in NS of this sort.

(That happend not often for me saying that about some top players. :P)

Thanks for this stupid rage!

im not sure how to quote but it the the first part is kinda making fun of skyice, the second part is about fana being a top player which i think is talking about his skill and then calling skyice posts a stupid rage when he was just stating what happend started imo his rage

Is this real life?

HEY WHAT THE FUCK!? I HAD A TEAM TO SIGN UP! IT'S STILL THE FIFTH!

THIS IS BULLSHIT OF THE HIGHEST CALIBRE

GODARCHAEA DOESN'T WANT A TRUE CHALLENGE SO THEY BAN MY TEAM FROM ENTERING!

UNBELIEVABLE

Too bad sublime, you're banned from the contests for 10 years.
cu @ ns3

Smaragor stop making stupid comments on ensl and get back in dat CC! you need to learn how to drop meds until friday! >:D

pfft u need to earn those meds first :P

Uhhh can we please get matches and default times?

I've got multiple European men up my ass about scheduling our games, but I can't do that without matches and default times set up :(

The same comment for casters.

LOLOL swalk!

At the state NS2 alrdy is .. meaning DIEING .. can u really afford to ban someone from contests? especially if that means en entire Team less to participate in one?

BAD MOVE !

But as always .. LVOE THE DRAMA ! XD !

lol i think swalk was joking, or should we say GENERAL TROLLING? 1 day ban yourself please.

"EisTeeAT NS Servers 01/Aug/13 06:00 General trolling and disrespec...
EisTeeAT Gather 01/Aug/13 06:00 General trolling and disrespec...
EisTeeAT Commenting 01/Aug/13 06:00 General trolling and disrespec...
EisTeeAT Website Logon 01/Aug/13 06:00 General trolling and disrespec..."

uh . yeah i forgot .. GJ with the bans .. especially cause 3 of those are completly useless XDD

The groups and matches have been put up, as well as the caster/referee signup document finished, thanks to Bladou!